So I was planning a Duelist archer build, then looked at the Ascendancy subclasses...

...and realized that the ones for the Duelist all completely suck for archery.

I thought the whole idea behind the Duelist was that it can be made to excel with any kind of weapon, that's why they have a cluster for projectile damage in their section of the tree (not to mention the bow clusters on the border with Ranger).

Meanwhile the Shadow, which is ostensibly designed for daggers/claws, gets 3 subclasses that all work great with bows.

Heck, the Elementalist, Occultist, and Inquisitor are all better for archery than any of the Duelist subclasses. These are on the opposite side of the tree, and they're all better for an elemental/chaos bow user than any of the Duelist subclasses!

What the heck, GGG?

Exactly the same here. Was planning to level a bow duelist next.

The whole ascendancy thing just has me so confused as to why it's being done.

Not very creative, are you? Onslaught on kill and 100% inc damage against low life enemies. Increased damage against uniques and rares. Leech on overkill damage. Can't be stunned while leeching. Stacking leeches. Bleeding and maiming. Exploding bleeding enemies. Frenzy on kill with main hand (not sure if that works with a bow). Fortify. Attack and movespeed with fortify. Armour and evasion on low life. Remove status effects when you hit low life.

I dunno. Looks like a lot of useful stuff for archers.

No offence sir, but you are totally unaware of what his abilities offer, you should double check before posting things like that.

Sure his subclasses might not offer crit or chain or other things you consider good for an archer build but every single Duelist subclass can (and will) be used for bow builds.

Slayer's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM
Champion's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM

Even Gladiator's bottom right path works with bows and its rather strong, though only 4 nodes instead of 6.

EDIT : If GGG could change the wording on the block path of Cladiator, to global block even those nodes could work with Rearguard quiver. (they do as they are now but they are not very effective)

"

No offence sir, but you are totally unaware of what his abilities offer, you should double check before posting things like that.

Sure his subclasses might not offer crit or chain or other things you consider good for an archer build but every single Duelist subclass can (and will) be used for bow builds.

Slayer's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM
Champion's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM

Even Gladiator's bottom right path works with bows and its rather strong, though only 4 nodes instead of 6.

EDIT : If GGG could change the wording on the block path of Cladiator, to global block even those nodes could work with Rearguard quiver. (they do as they are now but they are not very effective)

It's not a case of 'can be used' it's a case of 'are really shit compared to the other dex classes' for bows.

And no, really, they won't be used.

"

No offence sir, but you are totally unaware of what his abilities offer, you should double check before posting things like that.

Sure his subclasses might not offer crit or chain or other things you consider good for an archer build but every single Duelist subclass can (and will) be used for bow builds.

Slayer's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM
Champion's nodes work with bows, ALL OF THEM

Even Gladiator's bottom right path works with bows and its rather strong, though only 4 nodes instead of 6.

EDIT : If GGG could change the wording on the block path of Cladiator, to global block even those nodes could work with Rearguard quiver. (they do as they are now but they are not very effective)

It doesn't look as bad if you only look at the notable nodes. But the minor nodes on Gladiator are completely useless. The ones on Slayer don't give their damage bonus to bows. The Fortify line from Champion sounds nice, until you realize that a Duelist has plenty of access to armor nodes already, and that archers are the least in need of high physical defenses.


Sure, you will find a few nodes that aren't completely useless. But do any of them compare to stuff like Far Shot? Deadly Infusion? Ambush?

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

It's not a case of 'can be used' it's a case of 'are really shit compared to the other dex classes' for bows.

And no, really, they won't be used.

So what are the odds that the players who think like that are the ones crying about dying to reflect while I laugh at them with my fortified archer?

"

suszterpatt wrote:

...and realized that the ones for the Duelist all completely suck for archery.

I thought the whole idea behind the Duelist was that it can be made to excel with any kind of weapon, that's why they have a cluster for projectile damage in their section of the tree (not to mention the bow clusters on the border with Ranger).

Meanwhile the Shadow, which is ostensibly designed for daggers/claws, gets 3 subclasses that all work great with bows.

Heck, the Elementalist, Occultist, and Inquisitor are all better for archery than any of the Duelist subclasses. These are on the opposite side of the tree, and they're all better for an elemental/chaos bow user than any of the Duelist subclasses!

What the heck, GGG?

Slayer can use ANY two-handed weapon well. Bow IS two-handed weapon too.
Champion can use whatever weapon he wants and still have FORTIFY. Bows included.

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

It's not a case of 'can be used' it's a case of 'are really shit compared to the other dex classes' for bows.

And no, really, they won't be used.

"

suszterpatt wrote:

The ones on Slayer don't give their damage bonus to bows. The Fortify line from Champion sounds nice, until you realize that a Duelist has plenty of access to armor nodes already, and that archers are the least in need of high physical defenses.

Sure, you will find a few nodes that aren't completely useless. But do any of them compare to stuff like Far Shot? Deadly Infusion? Ambush?

I wont disaggre that the Gladiator's small nodes are not efficient ( i already made that point in my first post), but slayer's and champions trees are fully usable. I'm not trying in any way to change your mind regarding the subclasses, but from a HC perspective Duelist Archer absolutely a beast.

Regarding comparisons with other notables, you should tell me, is 20% dmg reduction with perm fortify (more if you include the %effect on fortify) worth it? Is Headsman and Overwhelm worth it? Is Gratuitius Violence and Blood in the Eyes Worth it?

The answer to every single question is yes, it is, if it doesnt fit your tastes it doesnt mean its not as good as the nodes you mentioned. Its true that damage-wise he cant get near enough to Shadow's crit potential, but survivability is unreal. If you play in SC you will obviously prefer the dps way and thats fine but plz dont disregard in such an absolute way different playstyles.

People who enjoy build planning (me included) are overhyped cause of the countless possibilities Ascendancy classes offer, the rest can be happy that their builds will be 100% more effective.

Just wait and see the epic crying that will commence when people find out they can no longer play the character they worked on the most, because its subclass sucks hard, or that they are forced to play a character they have spent a couple of years building some sort of hatred towards(because you tend to create polar opposites of whatever is in front of you and reinforce your beliefs as you grow).

It shall be grand.