Cyclone vs Cleave

Hi,

I've been playing some duelists with a view to using Cleave or Cyclone. Looking at the forum, Cyclone is one of the in things at the moment, but so far I'm not really seeing any advantages with it. I've got some analysis results below, can someone tell me if/where I'm going wrong, or sell Cyclone to me?

Two cases:
1: L86 Duelist using Wings of Entropy
2: L74 Duelist using 1H Axe + Shield
Lets ignore all other equipment and support gems.

Damage output

Cleave (Level 20, no quality)
Damage effectiveness 100%, uses both weapons @ 60% damage if DW, 100% damage once for 1H
136.6 x Base Damage @ L20

WoE ("both" weapons about the same, ignoring fire vs chaos damage)
1.0 x (2 x 0.6) x 1.366 = 1.64 x base damage per swing

Axe
1.0 x (1 x 1.0) x 1.366 = 1.366 x base damage per swing


Cyclone (Level 20, no quality)
Damage effectiveness 60%, DW uses each weapon once per revolution, 1H uses same weapon twice
0.614 x Base Damage @ L20, 80% attack speed

WoE or 1H Axe (same result)
0.6 x 2 x 1.0 x 0.614 x 0.8 = 0.589 x base damage

Summary: Cleave seems to do way more damage than Cyclone per swing?


AoE:Cyclone is 360 degree coverage, Cleave might have a slightly longer reach, but only 180 degrees. Call it a tie, leaning towards Cyclone

Defence: Can't be stunned while using Cyclone. Cleave does offer the possibility of using Arctic Armour, which is useless on Cyclone as you are always moving. Also easier to react quickly with Cleave, a lot harder to interrupt Cyclone. Result: Judgement call, personally, Cleave.....

Other Comments:
I find Cyclone to be a real mana glutton compared to Cleave, but maybe I'm doing it wrong? Can do a longer Cyclone movement, but see Defence above.

I also find Cyclone gets stuck against walls, corners, debris and shrubberies, and the stops, which is annoying when you are in the middle of melee.

Cleave and WoE seem to be made for each other, given their damage output. Cyclone would really come into its own with a 2H Axe though.

I have also tried using Cyclone with Lightning Shield, but for some reason it looks way slower. Maybe it's just an optical effect or animation, but the clear speed seems a little down too.


So, what am I missing with Cyclone?

Thanks,
Mal..

Cyclone's most important advantage is not quantifiable. It lets you move while attacking. That's so absurdly strong that it renders pretty much everything else irrelevant. Damage is neither here nor there, Cyclone does enough damage to kill blue mobs without stopping if you're well geared (also, Cyclone's DPS is increased by your movement speed, although I don't know the exact numerical relationship — I'm not sure that anyone outside GGG does). Mana problems can be made to disappear with Blood Magic or enough mana on hit/leech. AoE scales with weapon range meaning that it ends up being pretty damn sizeable. Getting stuck on objects is annoying, but nothing's perfect.

The clear speed of a well built Cycloner will always be far in excess of a comparable Cleaver. For what it's worth, Reave (a more directly comparable skill) also leaves Cleave in the dust, to the point where it's pretty much impossible to justify using Cleave over Reave even if you are dual wielding (unless you really want to use an axe).

Yeah, Cleave is numerically stronger, though your calculation is a bit off.

1H
Cyclone
0,614 * 2 * 0,8 = 98,2% dps
Cleave
136,6% dps

DW (assuming two identical weapons)
Cyclone
98,2% dps
Cleave
163,9% dps

Math says cyclone catches up to cleave in raw coverage when it reaches 14 units base, which isn't hard with +1 range jewel, Master of Arena and +2 Vagan craft (or Disfavor).

Unfortunately, dealing damage while moving is harder to quantify, the comparison would depend on your attack speed, move speed, dps and movement skill a Cleave build would be using. I'd say if we assumed cyclone's effective dps in clearing to be roughly double we wouldn't be too far off.

I agree cleave isn't popular at the moment, I got both Sweep and Cleave levelled in darkshrines on a 2H mara and I'm finding Sweep roughly 50% faster and much safer because of knockback. In 1h scenario Reave and Ice Crash would usually be a better choice with the possible exception of 'pop culture dual wielding' where you use two identical weapons... which nobody does nowadays because southpaw is cheaper and offhand stat stick cancels dps advantage of Cleave so you can use Reave or Ice Crash instead.

I suppose we could say Cleave is the victim of crappy dual wielding mechanics in PoE.

"

Yeah, Cleave is numerically stronger, though your calculation is a bit off.

Do you include the 60% damage effectiveness of Cyclone, vs 100% of Cleave? Or does that work differently with the damage mechanics?


I've been leveling both gems and using them as drop in replacements. The overall mechanics are similar I guess.

I get what you mean about the movement aspect, although visually in both my cases clear speed hasn't been significantly different. Which is why I posed the question :)

Those fake dual wield builds, yeah, had a look at them, but if I'm gonna go 1H, I prefer a shield for the defence. I do have a legacy Ungils, but could never convince myself DW with that was a better option than a shield.

Swords vs axes, just haven't found a decent 1H or 2H sword, they seem so low on damage compared to axes.

Anyhow, interesting answers, and enough to persist with testing Cyclone. Maybe a Shadow with Bino's (not great AoE, Reave probably better), or a 2H axe/sword Marauder if I can find a decent weapon. I do have a Marohi Erqi Sweep Marauder, the AoE of that is hilarious, it fills more than half the screen!

Thanks,
Mal..

"

Mal_function wrote:

Do you include the 60% damage effectiveness of Cyclone, vs 100% of Cleave? Or does that work differently with the damage mechanics?

Everything is there, a L20 Cyclone does 61,4% of base damage and hits twice at 20% less attack speed, there are no further penalties. Cleave does 136,6% of base damage, no bonuses or penalties.

When dual wielding, Cleave introduces a 40% damage penalty because it hits with both weapons at once, it doesn't alternate like Cyclone or Reave.

Beyond certain gear levels traveling speed and minimizing overkill become bigger contributors to clear speed than raw base damage% numbers. This is when Cyclone starts to shine even while having subpar dps numbers on paper. On top of this you get the defensive perks of stun immunity and being on the move.

I'd say Cleave could have potential as a dual wield skill as the damage gap becomes really wide. The problem is "fake" dual wielding with the bonuses from Death's Hand and Soul Taker are usually comparable to the damage bonus from Cleave, at which point you can just use Reave instead with far superior AoE. Maybe if you have 2 awesome 1H axes and no other good weapons...

I don't have either of those weapons (playing SF), the Soul Taker is on my wishlist for the 1H axe duelist though :)

I have noticed that the Cyclone movement effect does give you that extra bit of manual evasion. It's funny watching bosses like Voll flailing around trying to hit you. However, I put that down to my own inability to control the movement, rather than planned manual evasion. Feels kind of like a wobbly spinning top!

Both of my duelists are pretty defensive, 40-50% block, reasonable armour & evasion (WoE wearing LC, 1H wearing Daresso's), so I haven't had major survivability issues. I'm waiting on the respec to do some tidying up and optimisation, mainly around mana and life.

Probably my WoE guy will stick with Cleave, the synergies are pretty good, but we will see about the 1H duelist. Need better gear, but don't we all?

Raics - So, the damage effectiveness of melee skills is factored in as the initial L1 damage of the skill? The Wiki is confusing me, I'm over-analyzing the numbers....

Thanks for your answers!
Mal..

"

Mal_function wrote:

Raics - So, the damage effectiveness of melee skills is factored in as the initial L1 damage of the skill? The Wiki is confusing me, I'm over-analyzing the numbers....

Thanks for your answers!
Mal..

It's what you see on the gem, 'deals % of base damage'.

well..

the answer is clear and was given many times: cyclone is THE KING of melee skills just because it is a jack of all trades, master of all

paper damage is lower, but the movement + stun immunity + manual avoidance + extreme LGoH synergy just cannot be ignored. also the ability to spread damage means that the overkill is pretty much negligible thus the damage output is very close to damage dealt. 'spike damage' skills (like cleave) waste lots of damage output

cleave has its perks too - it is fun to play and when DW it deals serious damage (but reave is a 'better cleave' sadly). also the sound of cyclone is annoying as hell

cyclone has one issue that cleave does not have - it is more 'melee' than cleave. with cleave you can consistently and reliably be just outside the pack while with cyclone you (for best efficiency) have to 'go deep'. usually it is not a problem, not at all but from time to time you meet the Pebble of Doom that stops the spin mid-pack and you just die

corrupting blood/lightning thorns are dangerous if not careful, too

Another comparison, this time with Sweep, and a similar story with a slightly different ending!

I'd tried Cyclone with my Marohi Erqi Marauder before and was underwhelmed. Mana regen was major issue. I added a Mana Leech gem to my 5L Marohi, but the damage was poor compared to Sweep because I was losing out on Faster Attacks. Last night I managed to 6L the Marohi, and what a difference that made. Took out the Mana Leech, put in Faster Attacks and Reduced Mana:


This works very smoothly, and is almost sustainable in terms of mana - I can go quite a while without a break. I can now see the attraction of Cyclone, it's a visually nice skill to use, and the clear speed is good, especially on standard mobs. Against bosses, though, it feels like a little dog barking and nipping at the heels of a man. But I guess it's an AoE skill, not a single opponent skill.

Sweep, though.... Sweep on Marohi Erqi has a much wider AoE than Cyclone, and doesn't lose anything on damage. It already covers almost all of the screen (vertically) with the built in AoE, and is at the stage where ranged mobs like cobras think they are outside melee range, and therefore don't run away, but Sweep lays them flat. I have some increased AoE passives, and a big one coming next time I level up, at which point I will have 54% increased radius of AoE. Sweep is going to fill the screen when I am done.

I can see myself picking-and-mixing these two skills as the mood takes me!

It seems I run counter to the current skill and item metas in this game with my chars. I do things my way :)

Mal..