[Suggestion] Freedom of Build Design

For diversity, imagination and longevity (of both comunity and game) this needs to happen:

Does it? Totally don't think so.

Also has been discussed about 15 times already.

I've been reading a lot of the posts and discussions FOR and AGAINST locking Ascendancy classes to specific exiles.

I'll start by saying I think it's great that I can choose w/e exile I want currently and build her/him into w/e type of playstyle I desire... I am not restricted at all because the entire tree is available to me; for better or worse, efficient or inefficient I can try and make it work.

I believe this is the main point in why people are raising concern over locking Ascendancy classes to specific exiles. It's just many are arguing the point with incorrect wording.

They're trying to say doing this kills diversity. That's the wrong word to use imo. Doing this kills Options... not diversity. As pointed out in many threads the efficient player will always choose Scion for maximum accessibility to jewel nodes and access to any part of the passive tree for w/e build they desire. Locking the classes will force a change in this area, players will play other classes based on locked Ascendancy class options they want to try, they wont just have 1 toon they can reroll into any build in the game... so players FOR locked Ascendancy classes have very valid rebuttal when AGAINST players argue on the grounds of less diversity.

Less Options however is a very valid and strong argument AGAINST locking Ascendancy classes to exiles. Kreca74 summed it up nicely in the Ascendancy announcement thread when he wrote:

"-unlocked: 19 ascension options to each of the 7 chars = 133 possibilities based on ascensions alone
-locked: 3 ascension options to 6 chars + 1 to scion = 19 possibilities based on ascensions alone"

GGG's reasoning behind locking Ascendancy classes to each exile is based off of player feedback saying 'All exile classes are essentially the same - they just have different models but the distinction stops there'... fair point. But I think what they're only just starting to hear is that a large portion of the player base is fine with minimal distinction between exiles... what they're not fine with is a sudden deviation in game design that limits player options, which I think is also very fair and understandable.

I'm in neither boat when it comes to this divide in the community and will happily play whatever the outcome. PoE is the main game that I play and support and I trust the developers have taken notice of the communities response/concerns about Ascnedancy classes being locked to exiles, and that they will seriously consider and consult with the community moving forward.

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WARPAINTER wrote:

Kreca74 summed it up nicely in the Ascendancy announcement thread when he wrote:

"-unlocked: 19 ascension options to each of the 7 chars = 133 possibilities based on ascensions alone
-locked: 3 ascension options to 6 chars + 1 to scion = 19 possibilities based on ascensions alone"

I'm in neither boat when it comes to this divide in the community and will happily play whatever the outcome. PoE is the main game that I play and support and I trust the developers have taken notice of the communities response/concerns about Ascnedancy classes being locked to exiles, and that they will seriously consider and consult with the community moving forward.

Yes, of course all of us will still play. We like the game, thats why we bother to post and discuss about it.
Its just that one of the options restricts players from being creative and the other one will clearly enable alot more build diversity with no downsides to anyone.
Whichever course GGG decides, i would also like to know their opinion and reasoning about it.

More options for character customization the better in my opinion.

Restrictions breed creativity.

-1

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Restrictions breed creativity.

-1

that's such a lame general statement against people not wanting to loose a certain options
but i appreciate the idea behind it.

restriction is already a factor

you can't have multiple sets of unique boots or gloves

you can't have everything on the passive tree
certain things are clustered together more than others

to be efficient in dealing damage you need to restrict the amount of skills you can use and reinforce a particular selection of them.

to be defensive enough you need a combination of effective hp, physical, elemental and chaos resistance so you cant get one shot by weaker enemies or you will loose your HC character, or be stuck at a really low leveling speed to the point of not being able to gain a single level in several days doing maps.

this i consider to be a good thing because while you can make an insane amount of builds, most of them are not efficient enough to really beat the endgame content.

this means you really have to put in some effort to make a good build and provides a real challenge, without this you would have more variety but less of a challenge, endgame content would be trivialized and everyone could 'beat the game' and just move on and be done with the game in less than a month.

it also means that there is going to be a meta as certain things can be demonstrated to be more effective than others, no matter what you do and ppl will copy just to be able to get anywhere instead of coming up with their own unique ideas because then they would run the risk of failure by ending up with a less efficient build that gets stuck or dies.

but if someone really wants to play a specific class, they would now have to find a build that scales well with one of the available subclasses.
people argue that this will give those players more options as there are now new powerful nodes that you can make many new builds with and this is true of course.
but i feel it is also shortsighted.
they gain 3 subclasses they didn't have before, but they also don't get the other 16.

say you are consistently playing witches but you don't like the summoner playstyle, now you loose 17... say you like the summoner playstyle and will always use the necromancer subclass, now you loose 18.
it doesn't even matter if there is going to be another summoner based subclass for another class to that person, because they don't want to play as another class.

at the end of the day you did get more options for the class you wanna play compared to what we have now, but you still loose out on an insanely higher amount of options you could've gotten if it were being implemented in the way the game has worked for several years now.
to many of us this goes against the spirit of the game we fell in love with.

some people really want a unique class identity
some people love the game because it doesn't have that

POE is the only aRPG i know that has an entirely open system and i play it FOR that reason.
if ascendancy rolls out it will still be the most open aRPG out there but some of it's freedom will be lost.

saying that ascendancy kills diversity is an over exaggeration and just wrong in some ways, and true in others. it tweaks diversity, closes some doors but opens others.
saying that it adds to diversity is maybe less wrong, but still not 100% right.

to me personally i feel like certain doors being closed far outweighs some of the benefits and i am kinda disappointed when i wanna be excited.
there's so much cool stuff coming along with it that i'm looking forward to and yes, we don't know all the details.
i absolutely reject the principle of locking anything to the classes and no amount of details about the actual nodes is going to change that tho.

GGG are listening to a vocal part of the community that demanded 'class identity'
and that went completely under the radar for me and many others.
now that it has been announced there's a vocal part of the community that never asked for this and thinks its detrimental to the game, and both sides seem to be pretty set in stone and unwilling to change.

i have always disliked classes in RPG systems as they force a certain role on you and are usually doing this by imposing certain limitations.

you're a wizard now, you can't use swords because that is just so out of character for wizards and unbalances the system, here's your hat and your staff and now go be gandalf or else...

i don't want to be handed an identity, i want to define my own
i want to choose my own restrictions to make it work
to me this was one of the best parts of POE

"

WARPAINTER wrote:

"-unlocked: 19 ascension options to each of the 7 chars = 133 possibilities based on ascensions alone
-locked: 3 ascension options to 6 chars + 1 to scion = 19 possibilities based on ascensions alone"

So, 133 possibilities out of which, if you go with the popular demand of "unlock ascendancy if reaching the other classes starting node", a lot are effectively identical and out of which about 100 make essentially no sense because there is a more efficient / better build possible with another starting class.

Tell me a build, just a single build, that doesn't start from Scion and isn't possible with restrictions but would be without (and the need to travel to the other classes starting location). I am not talking about in-game graphics. Just, like, any build. Anything.

For Scion, slightly different story. So essentially, all of you are demanding a buff for Scion, without even knowing her ascendancy class yet. I don't get it.

"

Char1983 wrote:

"

WARPAINTER wrote:

"-unlocked: 19 ascension options to each of the 7 chars = 133 possibilities based on ascensions alone
-locked: 3 ascension options to 6 chars + 1 to scion = 19 possibilities based on ascensions alone"

So, 133 possibilities out of which, if you go with the popular demand of "unlock ascendancy if reaching the other classes starting node", a lot are effectively identical and out of which about 100 make essentially no sense because there is a more efficient / better build possible with another starting class.

Tell me a build, just a single build, that doesn't start from Scion and isn't possible with restrictions but would be without (and the need to travel to the other classes starting location). I am not talking about in-game graphics. Just, like, any build. Anything.

For Scion, slightly different story. So essentially, all of you are demanding a buff for Scion, without even knowing her ascendancy class yet. I don't get it.

Before you start quoting me and including me in your generalization '... all of you are demanding a buff for Scion' you might wanna read my post properly or unquote me and say MOST of you are demanding a buff for Scion.

I clearly state in my post that atm most efficient players can just roll a Scion for any build they like.
I also state that either way - locked or unlocked Ascendancy classes - I'm happy as a pig in errr mud. I'm neutral in this debate and will be happy with whatever GGG decides.

Scrotie is on point.

Fact of the madder is that by giving every class every ascendancy class, they might as-well not implement this system. Because it would lose all sustenance or "reason for being" in such a scenario.

They want the initial character pick to mater, to have relevance to the player later on, to be defined.
And for that, limitations are indeed necessary.

That doesn't infringe on off-class building/ special snow-flake designs or anything. It simply means you get more tools, but the tools are limited to the class. So you will have to work within that tool-frame.

And it's this limitation, being forced to work within the "tool-frame" of a class that will breed creative builds and idea's.

Remove the "frame" by allowing all classes all sub-classes and you stifle creativity and class identity again. Because why make a "shadow saboteur summoner" if you can make it a necromancer instead? Why even try a shadow saboteur summoner?
(just an example, don't mind the ridicules notion of it, that's intended to make my point)

By providing the illusion of choice (all classes get all 19 sub-classes) your not actually providing more choices, your stiffing them and their potential exploration.

APART from all of that jazz, balance would dictate that the nodes provided in the sub-classes would end up being "4%attack speed/ 10% two handed weapon damage" for a key-node and lose all relevance.
Because currently they can be power-full and game-changing by virtue of not being able to be picked at all points in the passive tree/classes.

It is the limitation that allows balance "exceptions" in them. Remove that limitation and you can remove the entire system in its entirety and simply do nothing.(which would have the same result to what the OP is promoting)

Peace,

-Boem-