In defense of mirrors

In the aftermath of the Eternal Orb announcement, I've done a lot of thinking about the economy and determined that Mirrors are better to have in the game than to not have in the game. I wanted to share my logic to help persuade anyone who would see them removed.

1. The Inexorable Flow to the Top

The most important principle here is what I call the Thrift Shop Rule - that which is used (an item for trade) is always cheaper than the average cost of that which is new (crafting an item yourself).

The proof for the Thrift Shop Rule is fairly simple. Imagine you're a seller trying to sell an item. If you set a price equal to or greater than the average price to craft, buyers don't need you at all. The buyer's ability to craft an item is essentially your first competitor, the first price you need to undercut in order to win the sale. So sellers do exactly that, and always will.

The consequence of the Thrift Shop Rule is that, assuming average luck, you cannot craft with the intention of trading the result away for a profit. The cost to craft will exceed the sale value, and you'll run a loss.

As a result of the Thrift Shop Rule, the only optimal use for currency is to make items that cannot be traded for - that is, very high end items (or, when leveling, sometimes ridiculously low-end, easy-to-craft items, if waiting for an online seller is too tedious). This doesn't apply to economic non-participants, obviously, but if you're willing to trade for it, and it's available, it's cheaper to trade.

The myth to bust here is that Mirrors cause this flow. Mirrors are not the cause of all that currency floating towards high-end crafting; the Thrift Shop Rule is. If Mirrors were removed, the demand might drop a bit (there would be less high-end crafting), but it would not reverse or even stop. High-end crafting would still exist.

2. The Loophole

Before I mentioned that the Thrift Shop Rule always applies. Well, there is an exception.

No, that loophole is not "high end items," at least not in-and-of-itself. Even if you're trying to craft an amazing item which would be a new best-in-server, there's always the risk that someone else could offer an equal or better item for trade, suddenly redefining the standard. If they do, it'll cost less than crafting it yourself would on average. High end crafting would become a speculation game of betting on what will not be put on the market in the future.

No, it is not responding to market bubbles. That is more like profitable flipping, really, and dissipates as soon as the market inevitably corrects itself.

Instead, the sole exception is: mirrored items. A mirrorable item becomes a renewable resource which enables a trade of "mirror + mirror fee = mirrored item." The mirror fee is profit. Profitable crafting realized; Thrift Shop Rule bypassed.

Note, however, that the Thrift Shop Rule is dodged for the mirrored item. Although the mirrorable item is of tremendous value, the average cost to craft it is still more than its trade value (in the rare instance such an item is put on the market).

This in turn means that Mirrors are the sole gateway to profitable crafting within Path of Exile. If you take them away, the AXNs and Ventors of the game go away. They can get by without Eternals just fine; there is no way they can continue without Mirrors, even if they still had Eternals.

Instead, players who want better-than-market-available gear would have but two option: craft it themselves, or wait for it to become available.

3. Specialization and Fun

So we've established that no Mirrors means no crafters-for-profit. So to determine if we care about Mirrors or not, we need to figure out if we care about such crafters or not.

I prefer to give players options on what they find fun, instead of picking one thing, labeling it "fun" and jamming it down their throats. Now, I understand the population of players with mirrorable or mirrored items is a small one, but the same principle applies to them nevertheless. If we don't have crafters-for-profit, then these players would have to craft the things themselves. Some players might just hate the idea. Others might initially like the idea but discover their crafting judgment is horrible and quit in frustration.

For those players who do not like crafting, I don't want to force them into it. I don't want to force them to wait helplessly for an upgrade to come on the market, either. I wound want crafters in the game to be able to profit from their hobby, not because I'm a high-end crafting fanboy, but because I want players to have the option to craft, or to allow others to craft for them.

Thus, I want Mirrors to drop in Path of Exile.

Thank you for reading.

Crafting costs more than sales value in PoE because of mirrors, and not because some gear is second-hand.

I think we should look at 6ls as an example. If we follow your logic, 6l something on your own would always be more expensive than buying a 6L...
Which is just not true.

You presume that every item will be swapped out and resold at a lower value than the craft cost...

That happens now, because everybody and their grandmother is saving up currency for Loath Banes/Glyph Marks...So people generally don't want to invest too much in small upgrades. Less demand, prices go down. Supply and demand 101.

I don't mind people being dedicated crafters. I mind that only 5-6 people are and that nobody else will ever be able to do it now that Eternals are gone.


Edit: It's 6am and I haven't slept, so I didn't explain it very well. I'll try to elaborate when I get some sleep.

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Ravenstrider wrote:

Crafting costs more than sales value in PoE because of mirrors, and not because some gear is second-hand.

I think we should look at 6ls as an example. If we follow your logic, 6l something on your own would always be more expensive than buying a 6L...
Which is just not true.

Generally it is. An average 6L takes between 300-800 fuses, vorici is 1500 fuse flat. So if you're lucky you can 6L in roughly 5 exalts, but it can be worse than 30 exalts (which is vorici's fee). Almost *all* uniques sell for less than 30 exalts and 6L bases run from as low from an exalt or two, to at most 10 exalts. You can make profit on 6Ls, but it is very much at the hands of RNGesus.

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Ravenstrider wrote:

You presume that every item will be swapped out and resold at a lower value than the craft cost...

That happens now, because everybody and their grandmother is saving up currency for Loath Banes/Glyph Marks...So people generally don't want to invest too much in small upgrades. Less demand, prices go down. Supply and demand 101.

That is because the upgrade cycle is too low. If you're already performing well then you don't need to check the market for upgrades and are already working on your next goal. This has nothing to do with mirrors whatsoever. In this case you'd be arguing that the game needs to be harder to force people to upgrade during the endgame constantly.

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Ravenstrider wrote:

I don't mind people being dedicated crafters. I mind that only 5-6 people are and that nobody will ever be able to do it now that Eternals are gone.

This one is an all too cogent point. But it has nothing to do with the removal of mirrors, and in fact is an endorsement on the return of eternals.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

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Ravenstrider wrote:

Crafting costs more than sales value in PoE because of mirrors, and not because some gear is second-hand.

I think we should look at 6ls as an example. If we follow your logic, 6l something on your own would always be more expensive than buying a 6L...
Which is just not true.

Generally it is. An average 6L takes between 300-800 fuses, vorici is 1500 fuse flat. So if you're lucky you can 6L in roughly 5 exalts, but it can be worse than 30 exalts (which is vorici's fee). Almost *all* uniques sell for less than 30 exalts and 6L bases run from as low from an exalt or two, to at most 10 exalts. You can make profit on 6Ls, but it is very much at the hands of RNGesus.

The average is more like 750-1250 Fusings to craft. So 15-25 Exalts. And I've got 116,000 Fusings to back that claim up.

Edit: didn't read my own thread :p

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The average is more like 600-1200 Fusings to craft. So 12-24 Exalts. And I've got 116,000 Fusings to back that claim up.

Even worse for making a profit or even breaking even on 6Ls, unique or not.

I'm sorry, I've read this an the Bell curve post, and I still think endless mirrorring is a bad thing.

If there was no mirroring, people would reach the point of no available upgrades much sooner, and more people would be forced to craft.

And, without mirrors, only the insanely OCD people would try to get perfect rolls on items...

Also: the number of items trickling.trickling down wouldn't be 150 from one player, but more spread out between t1/t2... And your very steep bell curve would become less so...


And, yes, I think eternals should return. I also think mirrors should be limited in some way.

Removing them like eternals would be pointless because of the existing ones.


Edit: Also - the people who don't like crafting would be enabling crafting for profit. Or at least I see it that way. *shrugs*

Honestly I don't see mirrors as a problem in any way shape or form. The only defense I have for mirrors specifically is that they already exist and removing them is a significant nerf -- I generally don't like nerfs whether they affect me or not. My response to you was merely in challenging what I perceive as wrong or irrelevant.

As far as limitting mirrors goes, this is one possibility but without changing the model of the game to adopt account bound items, I'm strongly against. I don't really like the idea of account bound items either, it's bad for trading in general -- I'd rather have trade removed than deal with account bound items.

What I'd specifically like to see is more fluidity in the higher tiers of currency, exalts, eternals and mirrors. That way the top 5-6 that you complained about would actually have some competition.