Magic find and ranged vs. melee

There are other threads about how magic find (IIQ) is negatively affecting game progression through end-game content (maps).

Related problem is existent in the rest of the game too. There will always be some disproportion between melee and ranged characters. I don't think there is anyway to avoid it. Ranged style has the advantage of not having to use many defensive stats, most of time simple run speed solves everything, even in PoE. Melee style will always have to sacrifice something to get the ability to take hits.

In some other games this discrepancy is covered by giving melee characters higher damage. Balancing this will never be perfect because there is so many variables.

This doesn't mean people are not going to play melee characters at all. It only means they are in some kind of disadvantage compared to spell casters and bow users. They can partially avoid it by using pseudo ranged attacks like lightning strike but it also defeats the spirit of melee play style, they are basically transforming melee character into ranged character.

Now magic find (MF) is a 'sugar stat' that allows us to get more and better drops from slain monsters. To access this stat you need to sacrifice some offensive and defensive abilities.

Since ranged characters main defense beside resistances, which are same for both styles, can be represented by run speed, the only part of gear they really need to focus on are 'increased run speed' boots, the rest can be just as much MF as possible on average gear. Melee characters can't afford to make this trade off because they would lose their ability to fight completely if they were not able to take hits.

Both styles would also sacrifice some offensive stats if focusing on MF. As a result ranged chracters need to kite more or progress more slowly while melee characters can't fight already because they also lost their defenses which made them incapable of fighting the content of their level.

As a result ranged characters have a lot easier access to magic find on top of already existing advantages related to the ability to hit targets from safe distance.

One small thing favours strength characters (which are often melee characters). It is the IIQ support gem that have STR requirement. There is also the IIR gem which has INT requirement to balance this. In one stream Chris said that they plan to make IIQ (or maybe both) gem white to grant access to it for all classes. It sounds fair if you forget everything I wrote in this post. If you don't, you will see making the gem would only make it even easier for spell casters to get extra IIQ opening the gap between both play styles even wider.

If GGG really wants to grant fair access to MF for all classes, I can't see any fair way to achieve it but removing MF from the game completely and adjusting drop rates accordingly.

TL;DR: No problem, there are shorter posts you can read.

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wiggin wrote:

This doesn't mean people are not going to play melee characters at all. It only means they are in some kind of disadvantage compared to spell casters and bow users. They can partially avoid it by using pseudo ranged attacks like lightning strike but it also defeats the spirit of melee play style, they are basically transforming melee character into ranged character.

Since ranged characters main defense beside resistances, which are same for both styles, can be represented by run speed, the only part of gear they really need to focus on are 'increased run speed' boots, the rest can be just as much MF as possible on average gear. Melee characters can't afford to make this trade off because they would lose their ability to fight completely if they were not able to take hits.

Just jump to Hardcore league. This "balance problem" isn't there, as all characters need to focus on survivability.

As for Default league, that will always be saturated with too many items. Doesn't matter if you've found 1 uber unique or 20. There will always be a thousand identical items for sale cheap anyway.

Thanks for reply.

I played a ranger with bow up to to level 60 in HC league but when I died I just didn't feel like I need to keep proving myself I can handle HC anymore in order to experience the game content, made a new melee ranger and continued playing in default after I met some nice people there.
The turth is, after I read your advice, I will probably stick with HC league after the final wipe.

So yes HC partially removes some of the problems I described in the original post. But the fact you can avoid some disadvantages connected to those problems doesn't solve them. If there was no HC league, you could say 'play ranged char' for example. I feel like the game would be better without those problems. And since some of them are really hard or impossible to solve it would be a big deal if those that can be solved would be solved.

If PoE keeps this mechanic, the best way to experience the game will be making MF dedicated char first to get access to all the drops and items you need (+ maps) and after that playing other characters you like for fun. But making the MF char essential for everyone seems like a bad scenario to me and a kind of step back to mfsorc days.

That's pretty much what I will be doing after the wipe. Leveling my shadow or witch (contingent upon further updates to the passive skill tree) for spell casting dps, as it benefits less from itemization and will therefore be at less of a disadvantage by wearing optimized mf gear.

I agree, it is not ideal. But then again, this is why I haven't leveled my spell casters too far -- minimizes redundancy, so I'm actually playing a new build that I've wanted to since I entered the CBT. Furthermore, it will allow me to follow up with alts that do rely heavily on itemization.. I never really enjoy those pockets of the game where you're falling behind in dps or defenses because you simply can't give up that 5-6 socket item and can't find another to replace it in enough time.

Thanks for reply CanHasPants (perhaps you could buy some?).

I was thinking why do some people enjoy MF so much as Chris said. Maybe one of the reasons is that they already like the play styles that allow them to stack MF easily which is making their favourite play style better than the other play styles. If this was the case, it would be natural to like MF because it would be one part of why is the play style you like so powerful.

I personally like all the 'not so much magical' play styles so if I made a dedicated MF character, it would be probably a bow user. But it seems like more convenient really is some spell caster, maybe I should reconsider and in order to enjoy the game better make a spell caster instead.

I already use MF gear with bow on my melee character because it is the only way to effectively use MF. Who cares that all the passive points spent on block chance and melee damage are wasted when all I need is high IIQ?

Well, I care. The game is forcing me to play certain way I don't even enjoy that much. It seems like the proclaimed build diversity with endless possibilities is being reduced.

As a ranged character, I'm speccing and gearing just as much into survivability as I did on my melee characters. If there's a discrepancy in the amount required, it's very slight. Changing MF itself would likely fix this much more simply.

The whole 'MF character' thing and caster DPS barely scaling with gear is a whole different subject that I think is going to be a huge problem in the future, a result of lots of decisions.

Played a melee templar and a casting templar. The defensive aspect of melee that I looked into are more than my casting one. The +Armor bonus is very important for melee, but not that important for my casting one.

Meanwhile, if range is a defensive aspect, wonder if they are introducing "+2 yards" supportive gems (-accuracy). An increase range gem with a knockback gem (-damage) would be a great defense combination for melee.

Thanks for replies.

Caiada, my bow ranger is specced and geared into life and evasion too. It is convenient. I can play more recklessly without dying and I can run through some zones if I want to. I just currently don't use that character because I focused on leveling the melee one. Maybe I could give the MF gear to the bow user but it doesn't seem right to use one char just to be able to play another. It is OK as an option but not as a requirement.

I didn't want to claim that defensive stats are completely useless for ranged characters and I hope I never implied that. I was trying to say that ranged characters can choose to not use the defenses and if it comes to MF, they just need to keep run speed and slow down the killing a bit while melee characters are extremely more affected by loss of defenses.

There was this video from a guy with 1 hp and 0 es and how is he killing stuff in Maelström of Chaos. It is extreme but it demonstrates that (even complete) loss of defense doesn't discard a spell caster from the game.

markshiu, could you elaborate on the supportive gems please, I'm not sure if I get it ;)

I put my mf gear to my bow ranger. I wish I never did that. I feel like doing maps with my melee one is a waste now. I'd like to play melee because I am having fun with it but farming with it is so ineffective.

My MF with dedicated finishing move and regular attack:

Whining:


I'm sorry for this whine-post, I had to share those feelings, it is so discouraging.