ice bite is broken.

it's not adding 30% to weapon cold damage. in-game i see about a 3% dps increase when i should be seeing 6.5%.

i've run numerous tests and they always come out the same.


if i do 1000 physical damage and have lvl 5 hatred on
i should do 1280 damage. ice bite should then put me at 1364 damage. it doesn't.

280 x .3 = 84

1280 + 84 = 1364.

that's a 6.5% increase in damage.

i've run 5-6 different tests with gear all without any extra elemental damage, pure physical with only hatred and it's always around a 3% increase.
You haven't learned the order of operations yet, and how they work with conversion.

Increased damage is applied to the base numbers. If your weapon does 100 damage a hit, the hatred in your example would add 28 damage. Then that 28 would be increased by the applicable "increased" stats: Weapon Elemental Damage%, Cold%, and Physical Damage%. All of those are summed together into one lump before multiplying the base damage, they don't multiply with one another.

The long and the short of it is that Weapon Elemental stats really kind of suck right now and they could revert them to the old values without it breaking anything.

Ice Bite, Lava Lash and Arcing Blows are only worth it if you're using a conversion skill - Lightning Strike, Lightning Arrow, Glacial Hammer or Infernal Blow.
Last edited by LimitedRooster on Oct 27, 2013, 2:28:03 AM
Thanks, that was a good answer and I agree with your verdict that those passives are mostly worth taking when you have an unusually high portion of elemental damage output. Cheers.
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Yeah, you can regard converted damage as both physical and elemental as far as increasing it is concerned. So, in case you got some converted, physical damage nodes will affect all of your damage, and weapon elemental nodes will affect just the converted part.

Even in the case of massive converted damage attacks like glacial hammer, taking a node that increases half of your damage by 30% is the same dps-wise as taking a node that increases all of your damage by 15%, and we got plenty of such physical nodes.

So, it's not bugged, just... underwhelming. However, those nodes have a use, that's for setups that have large amounts of flat elemental damage added via anger/wrath aura, uniques like thunderfist or that new axe, and also for Elemental Hit skill.
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You haven't learned the order of operations yet, and how they work with conversion.

Increased damage is applied to the base numbers. If your weapon does 100 damage a hit, the hatred in your example would add 28 damage. Then that 28 would be increased by the applicable "increased" stats: Weapon Elemental Damage%, Cold%, and Physical Damage%. All of those are summed together into one lump before multiplying the base damage, they don't multiply with one another.


This doesn't make sense though. If you have pure physical damage, and you turn on hatred, it adds 30% dps.

So in the example the phys + hatred dmg is then multiplied by all the physical damage increases (in this case it is a factor of 10).

Ice Bite isn't working like this. It should be [ 100 + (28*1.3) ] * the factor of 10.

What the OP is saying that the increase form ice bite is less than this which is what I am also seeing.

Same thing for lava lash and increased weapon elemental damage. They do add damage with hatred and fire added gem but it is less than it should be.
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So in the example the phys + hatred dmg is then multiplied by all the physical damage increases (in this case it is a factor of 10).
Ice Bite isn't working like this. It should be [ 100 + (28*1.3) ] * the factor of 10.

No, it shouldn't be. Increased and Reduced are additive modifiers; Ice Bite is Increased Damage, so it's additive with other sources of Increased Damage.

Arcing Blows, Lava Lash and Ice Bite are passives that aren't worth it if only ten to twenty percent of your Damage is Elemental and already benefits from a ton of Increased Damage. Deal with it.
Last edited by Vipermagi on Nov 3, 2013, 8:55:09 PM
Ice Bite, Lava Lash, and Arcing Blows should be converted to "more" effects at roughly 15-20% more.

That makes them enticing for builds that specialize in an elemental damage type on their weapon. Being increased makes them relatively uninteresting due to the way certain scaling works on % conversion effects.

Basically the only one of the three passives that's good is Arcing Blows, because both of the added lightning damage gems are flat (and therefore don't get weapon damage passives).

Edit: Also for posterity the nodes should all be centered either on the pure of their corresponding stat, or the clockwise-shifted hybrid. Currently lava lash throws off tree symmetry by a lot.
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Last edited by Autocthon on Nov 3, 2013, 8:59:19 PM
Eh I'm alright with the way things are. As it is, there's only three builds in the entire game: Physical attacker, elemental attacker (all about WEleDam% and attack speed), and Wizard, with everything some subset of the three. It's my opinion there should be more fracturing of the basic meta-backbones, not less.

But Ice Bite does have it especially bad compared to its twins. It's located in possibly the worst route on the tree, and it has scant flat +damage effects to scale along with. Lightning Weapon% has Wrath and Added Lightning. Lava Lash has Anger. And Ice Bite has... Added Cold Damage.

Not quite an overwhelming power spot for that Ice Shot or Glacial Hammer. At least with Arcing Blows, if you're Lightning Arrow and going for Energy Shield%, you can take it and feel like it's a solid take. With Glacial Hammer and Ice Bite, you just happen to be in the worst place ever for your character.
Last edited by LimitedRooster on Nov 3, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
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Vipermagi wrote:
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So in the example the phys + hatred dmg is then multiplied by all the physical damage increases (in this case it is a factor of 10).
Ice Bite isn't working like this. It should be [ 100 + (28*1.3) ] * the factor of 10.

No, it shouldn't be. Increased and Reduced are additive modifiers; Ice Bite is Increased Damage, so it's additive with other sources of Increased Damage.

Arcing Blows, Lava Lash and Ice Bite are passives that aren't worth it if only ten to twenty percent of your Damage is Elemental and already benefits from a ton of Increased Damage. Deal with it.



Additive how?

I will make a really simple example.

A weapon has 100 damage with 1.0 attacks per second, all physical.

You have a 20% hatred turned on, and somehow have only one passive, and that is ice bite.

How much does it hit for?

So 100 + 20 + what?

It seemingly should be 30% of 20.

What I am saying is that it is definitely lower than that, by a factor of 3 or 4.

EDIT: I think it is bugged and isn't getting increased physical damage. So hatred is adding 30% of physical dps, but ice bit is only adding 30% more of that before physical multipliers.
Last edited by FearandArrogance on Nov 4, 2013, 8:12:06 PM
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I will make a really simple example.

A weapon has 100 damage with 1.0 attacks per second, all physical.

You have a 20% hatred turned on, and somehow have only one passive, and that is ice bite.

How much does it hit for?

So 100 + 20 + what?

It seemingly should be 30% of 20.
And in that case, it will be exactly that.

"
What I am saying is that it is definitely lower than that, by a factor of 3 or 4.
That's because you don't have that case. You have a bunch of increased physical damage, which stacks additively with the increased cold damage for the damage from Hatred.

Here's a more complicated example that is closer to your actual case.

If:
You have a weapon with 100 base physical damage.
You have Hatred active for 20% of physical damage added as cold.
You have 100% increased physical damage from passives.
You have 30% increased cold damage with weapons from Ice Bite.

Then:
You have 100 base physical damage, increased by 100% increase to give 200 physical damage.
You have 20 base cold converted form physical damage, increased by 130%, because the modifiers stack additively, to give 46 cold.
Final damage: 200 physical, 46 cold.

If you didn't have Ice Bite, it would only be increased by 100%, and thus you'd have 40 cold damage. The reason the 46 damage with Ice Bite isn't 30% more than the 40 damage without it is that you also have another 100% increased damage in both cases. Going from 0% increase to 30% increase is a more significant change than going from 100% increase to 130%.
Just like how going from 0% increase to 100% is doubling, where going from 100% increase to 200% isn't.

The more increased damage bonuses you have on any given damage, the less impactful further such bonuses - including Ice Bite - are on that same damage, because they all stack additively.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Nov 4, 2013, 11:13:54 PM

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