Discussion: Attack speed negative modifiers inherent to armour types?

The too long; didn't read version is the topic.

It's been a while since I've made something this general for discussion, but it was asked in GC a little while. Do armour types affect speed as in attack speed and movement, or just movement?

Of course, a quick glance at the C screen will reveal the answer. Most of us know it.

But it got me thinking. SHOULD heavier armour types incur a slight attack speed penalty? I'm not really asking from the point of view of balance, just the internal realism established by the fact that heavier armour types incur a slight movement speed penalty.

What's the difference between movement speed (running) and attack speed (swinging) as regards the weight and bulk of armour?

Sure, running in chainmail is definitely more exhausting than running in light leather or robes, but I should think that swinging a sword in chainmail would be slower and more exhausting than swinging a sword in light leather or robes. Maybe not to the same extent, but still.

Yes, this would be a nerf. Yes, this might negatively affect your favourite character.

Look past that. Does this make sense? If you were new to PoE and saw that heavier armours incur a slight attack speed penalty, would you be impressed by the attempt at realism or horrified that it might mean your intended build is now weaker/non-viable?



Warhammer 40k Inquisitor: where shotgunning is not only not nerfed, it is deeply encouraged.

Dogma > Souls, but they're masterworks all. You can't go wrong.

I was right about PoE2 needing to be a separate, new game. It was really obvious.
Running is very much a full body movement, swinging a weapon is not. You have 100% of the weight of the gear bearing down on you while running, whereas only a small portion of the weight (the armguards and gloves) are having an effect on you swinging your weapon.

To balance it out, heavy armor wielding enemies would have to be slowed too. This game doesn't need to get any slower than it already is for the majority of the game.
Last edited by Xendran on Sep 19, 2012, 2:43:05 AM
I always prefer balance to realism. I would prefer a balanced Pong to an unbalanced Generic Shooter 2022.
I consider the strength requirement the abstract of this and other related "realistic" problems with wearing armour. Ie. a 10 STR weakling can't attack quickly in a particular bit of plate mail, but a burly 230 STR barbarian can; that seems to make sense. Granted we already have movement speed penalties in an identical manner, so I'm sure you could do this without any big problem, but it seems to me the more things like this you add in, the less sense attribute requirements make at all.
It would drive people like me even further away from builds that involve slower characters. I already have a very hard time bringing myself to use anything but characters with the fastest movement and fastest attack speed.
If heavy armor incurred even more of a penalty on top of movement, I'd probably never use it, ever. Or I would go out of my way to take the keystone that removes armor penalties pretty much every time.
From a realism standpoint, I am pretty sure you can swing just as fast in heavy armor as light armor, assuming the armor is fitted to you properly. You may get winded more quickly, but there is no stamina in this game(Thank god)

As mentioned above, balance/fun > realism.
"Danger is like jello, there's always room for more."
http://www.twitch.tv/vejita00
Last edited by CliveHowlitzer on Sep 19, 2012, 5:51:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg&playnext=1&list=PLE68C81D64D5E8758&feature=results_main
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6IL2giKNN8&feature=related

"Heavy Armor" isn't havy at all.
You should better call it "Expensive Armor" :D

If you search on youtube long enough you will find a 60min video where some professor explains the use and missunderstandings of heavy armor.
In fact, you can move the same as without armor.
And it weights less than the eqipment soldiers wear today.
Last edited by Sangei on Sep 19, 2012, 7:10:21 AM
"
Sangei wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg&playnext=1&list=PLE68C81D64D5E8758&feature=results_main
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6IL2giKNN8&feature=related

"Heavy Armor" isn't havy at all.
You should better call it "Expensive Armor" :D

If you search on youtube long enough you will find a 60min video where some professor explains the use and missunderstandings of heavy armor.
In fact, you can move the same as without armor.
And it weights less than the eqipment soldiers wear today.

Maybe you meant this video called How to Mount a Horse in Armor and Other Chivalric Problems. Maybe not, but it is interesting look into the misconseptions.

Anyhow I don't think the idea of movement speed penalties or even attack speed penalties is completely wrong. Wearing even really light and small piece of armour and not wearing it is a difference, especially if you wear it all day long (or few days). I can tell from my own experience. So even if it doesn't directly slow you down, it definitely does tire you.
✠ ✠
I think this is a good idea, but for it to work i think they would need to bring up the base attack speed slightly, even run speed could do with a slight increase. Without doing that I can see early game, and even late game for some builds being REALLY slow.
Leaves are falling all around, It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you, I'm much obliged for such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go.
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain, and with it pain, and it's headed my way.
Last edited by Chrono89 on Sep 19, 2012, 10:47:27 AM
That would be a terrible idea on the grounds that it would effectively remove heavy armor - a notoriously bad option in almost every game that has it from play entirely.

I don't think we really need another Archon Armor/Mithril Chain Shirt or Breastplate or GTFO type game.
FFA loot = single player game.

"I'm sorry I steal all the things, it's the only way I know how to say I love you." - a FFA looter.
"
Xendran wrote:
Running is very much a full body movement, swinging a weapon is not.


I spent years training in two different martial arts. One focused on long-distance kick attacks (tae kwon do) and one a more well-rounded hand to hand/clutch style (praying mantis kung fu). Later I studied with an instructor who "teaches jeet kune do" - which is kind of an oxymoron. JKD is a non-style, basically all about real time combat tactics. Most arts focus on forms, or sequences of actions that you train yourself by reflex to follow without much thought. JKD teaches you to fight formless. Really it's just an idea that Bruce Lee adhered to, but today people try to teach it. I think you really need multiple black belts to even have a hope of getting good at this JKD idea, it was all a bit over my head.

By the way, if you want to learn a martial art, tae kwon do isn't a very useful art :). Don't tell me about chuck norris, it's just not the best. He's an exception.

Anyway, here's the point. In fighting, especially with a weapon, delivering a blow isn't just about swinging the weapon and making contact. It's about physics. How the force of the blow translates through all your joints from your wrists, across your shoulders, down your spinal chord, through your feet, and into the ground. Every swing of a sword or staff goes along with a whole body movement. Your entire body has to be positioned perfectly to get a strong hit.

Yes, swinging a staff is a whole body exercise. Not just the arms.

Being encumbered at all slows you down and makes you clumsier - you'll have sloppier form because you're slower. So not only all that but your hits will be weaker too.

Unless you're very strong and fit. Which are indeed two separate things.

I think if anything, to answer charan's question, items should be equippable if you don't meet the stat requirements. For every point under requirement you are overall on your equipped gear, you should take a speed penalty. Someone training with armour for years would still be able to fight with pretty amazing speed. Someone who just picked up a suit of armour and put it on for the first time wouldn't be able to lift a finger.
Let a man walk alone -
Let him commit no sin.
Let him bear few wishes,
Like an elephant in the forest.
Last edited by Zakaluka on Sep 19, 2012, 1:56:19 PM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info