[The Goddess Swords Discussion] 19th Jan, 2017: Volume has been fixed; Writing The Goddess

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Completed 18 ChallengesZarroTsu wrote:
the build was still severely susceptible to any map mod that reduces your maximum fire resistance or your life recovery rate. Even after doing everything right, I was never "comfortable" doing red maps, yet at the same time yellow maps were too easy.


Just so we're all on the same page here, "the build" here refers to TGU, and not RF, yes? You threw me for a loop the first time I read through your post because points 1 through 4 were talking about RF, so I was like "wait, so you're talking about a downside of RF now, right? Or a downside of TGU?"
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Flat degen AGAIN? And here I thought charan told us very clearly that flat degen is no option, because the sword is meant to be able to be used by all kinds of characters. Not only tanks, but also glass cannons.
I make dumb builds, therefore I am.
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Completed 6 Challengesadghar wrote:
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Completed 18 ChallengesZarroTsu wrote:
the build was still severely susceptible to any map mod that reduces your maximum fire resistance or your life recovery rate. Even after doing everything right, I was never "comfortable" doing red maps, yet at the same time yellow maps were too easy.


Just so we're all on the same page here, "the build" here refers to TGU, and not RF, yes? You threw me for a loop the first time I read through your post because points 1 through 4 were talking about RF, so I was like "wait, so you're talking about a downside of RF now, right? Or a downside of TGU?"


I was talking about the downsides and upsides of RF, and contrasting them to TGU's current form. Of note with my RF build, every time I vaaled a red map it seemed to always give me some mix of vulnerability, negative max resistances, reduced life recovery, and/or "cannot regenerate life and mana". Not that a build shouldn't have obvious weaknesses, but my garbage map pile got rather tall.

Now, take this susceptibility and apply it to TGU's degen.


99% life over 3 seconds while under vulnerability sounds like a very quick way to get very dead. Red maps would be the point where I'd consider dropping the sword or taking Resolute Technique so I don't friggin die. But then it stops being a build about using the sword, and starts becoming unfun.


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Completed 28 ChallengesFCK42 wrote:
Flat degen AGAIN? And here I thought charan told us very clearly that flat degen is no option, because the sword is meant to be able to be used by all kinds of characters. Not only tanks, but also glass cannons.


Alright, option C: The degen maxes at 33% over 3 seconds instead of 99%.


11% of life a second, which I should stress will constantly be reset if you're igniting over and over, would go down to 2.75% of life a second after resistances.

At -12% max res, this is 4% of life a second.


Vulnerability has you take 33% more damage over time, so 11% becomes 14.63%, which becomes 3.6575% after resistances.

At -12% max res and Vuln, this is 5.4131% of life a second.

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With 99% over 3 seconds (33%/s), you're looking at a base of 8.25% life a second.

At -12% max res, this is 12.21%.

Under Vuln, this is an insane 43.89% DoT, or 10.9725/s.

At -12% max res and Vuln, this is 16.2393%.

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In each scenario, 5.4131% and 16.2393% is the amount of life regen you need to be able to survive Her Blessing under most situations. The former is fairly straightforward with enough points remaining to compensate the loss of that regen and the lack of a shield; the latter is what makes the current sword unusable in maps.

If the degen scales with you, it's important to stress that the "I don't want to use this weapon" factor scales as well. And a weapon that actively becomes impossible to use might fit thematically, but it's unfun in an actual video game unless the severity is small enough. You are taking damage from other things than the sword at the same time as the sword after all.
Last edited by ZarroTsu on Feb 17, 2017 9:02:14 AM
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Completed 18 ChallengesZarroTsu wrote:
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Completed 6 Challengesadghar wrote:
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Completed 18 ChallengesZarroTsu wrote:
the build was still severely susceptible to any map mod that reduces your maximum fire resistance or your life recovery rate. Even after doing everything right, I was never "comfortable" doing red maps, yet at the same time yellow maps were too easy.


Just so we're all on the same page here, "the build" here refers to TGU, and not RF, yes? You threw me for a loop the first time I read through your post because points 1 through 4 were talking about RF, so I was like "wait, so you're talking about a downside of RF now, right? Or a downside of TGU?"


I was talking about the downsides and upsides of RF, and contrasting them to TGU's current form. Of note with my RF build, every time I vaaled a red map it seemed to always give me some mix of vulnerability, negative max resistances, reduced life recovery, and/or "cannot regenerate life and mana". Not that a build shouldn't have obvious weaknesses, but my garbage map pile got rather tall.

Now, take this susceptibility and apply it to TGU's degen.


99% life over 3 seconds while under vulnerability sounds like a very quick way to get very dead. Red maps would be the point where I'd consider dropping the sword or taking Resolute Technique so I don't friggin die. But then it stops being a build about using the sword, and starts becoming unfun.


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Completed 28 ChallengesFCK42 wrote:
Flat degen AGAIN? And here I thought charan told us very clearly that flat degen is no option, because the sword is meant to be able to be used by all kinds of characters. Not only tanks, but also glass cannons.


Alright, option C: The degen maxes at 33% over 3 seconds instead of 99%.


11% of life a second, which I should stress will constantly be reset if you're igniting over and over, would go down to 2.75% of life a second after resistances.

At -12% max res, this is 4% of life a second.


Vulnerability has you take 33% more damage over time, so 11% becomes 14.63%, which becomes 3.6575% after resistances.

At -12% max res and Vuln, this is 5.4131% of life a second.

----

With 99% over 3 seconds (33%/s), you're looking at a base of 8.25% life a second.

At -12% max res, this is 12.21%.

Under Vuln, this is an insane 43.89% DoT, or 10.9725/s.

At -12% max res and Vuln, this is 16.2393%.

----

In each scenario, 5.4131% and 16.2393% is the amount of life regen you need to be able to survive Her Blessing under most situations. The former is fairly straightforward with enough points remaining to compensate the loss of that regen and the lack of a shield; the latter is what makes the current sword unusable in maps.

If the degen scales with you, it's important to stress that the "I don't want to use this weapon" factor scales as well. And a weapon that actively becomes impossible to use might fit thematically, but it's unfun in an actual video game unless the severity is small enough. You are taking damage from other things than the sword at the same time as the sword after all.

Actually I was able to run 2 of the 3 mods you mentioned without any problems really. Vulnerability was never really much of an issue, it was maybe a nuisance at worst or barely noticeable at best. Less recovery also wasn't too bad, except for 60% which again, was not actually that bad. -Max resists however is something I always stayed away from. That thing is nasty. Like... really nasty. And yes, I did those mods before I started using atziri's splendour as a body armour. However, with the sacrificial garb, it's even easier than before to run those mods. 100 life on kill are a lot and actually, I think it was a pretty good choice as a body armour in the end.
Then again, it's not something you can rely on early on in leagues, so I guess we should scratch that.
On the other hand, leech is a pretty good option in that case. As long as you have enemies, you stay alive. If you don't have enemies, you still won't die from the degen and can regen back to full afterwards with the regen you already have.

Still, I would keep the degen level of unleashed above that from blood rage in the endgame. Because let's be honest... the 4% degen of blood rage doesn't even bother anyone, except for the first 20 levels you can use it.
I make dumb builds, therefore I am.
How about first making sure that THU is not a downgrade from scorned anymore, and upping the crit on it. Since they were pretty much crit centered swords.

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Completed 28 ChallengesFCK42 wrote:

On the other hand, leech is a pretty good option in that case. As long as you have enemies, you stay alive. If you don't have enemies, you still won't die from the degen and can regen back to full afterwards with the regen you already have.

Still, I would keep the degen level of unleashed above that from blood rage in the endgame. Because let's be honest... the 4% degen of blood rage doesn't even bother anyone, except for the first 20 levels you can use it.


Life leech should be supplementary rather than required. ie. You get yourself about 6% life regen to stay alive in -res maps, then leech as one of your primary defenses without worry.

Also if the degen is reduced, you'd be able to run TGU and Blood Rage at the same time if you're ambitious enough (as opposed to "crazy enough").
Last edited by ZarroTsu on Feb 17, 2017 9:38:57 AM
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How about first making sure that THU is not a downgrade from scorned anymore, and upping the crit on it. Since they were pretty much crit centered swords.



The "downgrade" part is inherently difficult to ensure for all players unless you take D3's balancing method (Rare -> Legendary -> Ancient -> Primal Ancient), because different players value different stats differently, and people who are interested in the game design of "deep ARPGs" generally agree that this is a Good Thing. IAS, movespeed, anti-status, Blind, overconversion, and in 3.0 scaling with your character power are all benefits that TGU gives - but she's also going to have the degen. This "cost" will inevitably vary from character to character. For example, some people are very used to building Vaal Pact, which means that 33% degen is absolutely unacceptable to them. People who are used to building Regen and default-Leech at the same time, however, barely notice it, allowing the rest of the sword to come as "free power."

This is the basis of Economics 101, often called "opportunity cost."

Again, for the designers of "deep RPGs," it is often considered a Good Thing.
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Last edited by adghar on Feb 17, 2017 1:57:21 PM
33 over 3 seconds might be a goer but it's pretty fucking tame at high end.
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howdy,

why not make the degen scale by kills as long as you can keep the blessing active, would also do the same for her dmg aswell and discard all other changes to its dmg outside of her blessing.

it might be that at some point you need to stop kill things and let her blessing run out but i dont see a problem there, this would give her a very unique playstyle.

i think this would fit her fantasy well.
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Completed 30 ChallengesgwenZ wrote:
howdy,

why not make the degen scale by kills as long as you can keep the blessing active, would also do the same for her dmg aswell and discard all other changes to its dmg outside of her blessing.

it might be that at some point you need to stop kill things and let her blessing run out but i dont see a problem there, this would give her a very unique playstyle.

i think this would fit her fantasy well.

While this does sound interesting, from what I understand the degen should start high and become lower to fit her fantasy. I might be wrong on that one though.
It's late afterall and I'm both tired and ill, so cut me dome slack.
I make dumb builds, therefore I am.

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