High Level Map Boss Dmg Is Just Dumb

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johnKeys wrote:

show me a build today (base: Marauder) that can get more than 3k life AND enough Endurance AND good damage output.
you'll need about 200 skill points for that :)
and no, I can't get super-BiS gear with 100+ life +30 all resists in every slot. that's ridiculous.

now, they are thinking about giving EK to the damn Act 2 Weaver. I'm losing hope honestly.

my damn summoner witch has 3800 hp and it feels squishy in higher maps

the sooner you accept that a high pool of hp is the #1 defense in this game, and on onslaught/hardcore the #1 thing to stack, the better.

you can go against the grain if you want, and there are builds (ie blender) with high damage output but crappy hp...just realize that you'll die...a lot.
"
grepman wrote:
"
johnKeys wrote:

show me a build today (base: Marauder) that can get more than 3k life AND enough Endurance AND good damage output.
you'll need about 200 skill points for that :)
and no, I can't get super-BiS gear with 100+ life +30 all resists in every slot. that's ridiculous.

now, they are thinking about giving EK to the damn Act 2 Weaver. I'm losing hope honestly.

my damn summoner witch has 3800 hp and it feels squishy in higher maps

the sooner you accept that a high pool of hp is the #1 defense in this game, and on onslaught/hardcore the #1 thing to stack, the better.

you can go against the grain if you want, and there are builds (ie blender) with high damage output but crappy hp...just realize that you'll die...a lot.


I actually had a few "phases" playing my main since Open Beta started.
first, I tried "going against the grain" and made him a custom build with a more offensive orientation.
then I hit a wall around Act 2 Merciless, and was practically forced to go all-in HP.
finally, after completing Merciless and already running maps a bit, GGG made the "grand mob damage re-balance patch". I took their word for it, and re-specced back into my custom build. this time with better defenses (I also got much better gear), but less DPS.

I still use it today, and also fell in love with Molten Shell and anything related to Endurance Charges - but looking back, oh god what a mistake that re-spec was.
GGG's patch only made things worse because the life nodes nerf made mobs hit even harder relatively to your life pool, than they did previously. and the fact some bosses (i.e Blacksmith) are just insane for their level - made sure the furthest I ever got solo was killing Temple Piety without any mods on the map. it was insane. so many curses and trips to town to refill flasks :)
map Kuduku - for example - just raped my poor melee in seconds despite the charges and flasks. it's impossible to run around in that tight space, or get close to that bastard without being triple-shocked in the process, but what if you have to?

assuming your Witch isn't melee, the fact she has 3800 HP and still feels squishy speaks for itself.
bosses should be tough not because they spam you into submission with an OP attack - forcing you to BiS or die - but because they have good AI and multiple ways to "surprise" you and punish you for mistakes.

only after joining a map group (than expanding it to include some more awesome high level players) did I finally see how level 72+ maps look like, and got to experience the game's awesome unique maps.
that, after 7 months playing...

with only a few months until release and so much still left to do, I honestly have no idea how GGG intend to pull it off.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on Aug 9, 2013, 1:24:56 PM
You have to use Fairgraves Tricorne for Map Kuduku. Then you can't get shocked. One of my biggest mistakes was running that map with minus max resistance and 2 unique boss.
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"
johnKeys wrote:
"
grepman wrote:
"
johnKeys wrote:

show me a build today (base: Marauder) that can get more than 3k life AND enough Endurance AND good damage output.
you'll need about 200 skill points for that :)
and no, I can't get super-BiS gear with 100+ life +30 all resists in every slot. that's ridiculous.

now, they are thinking about giving EK to the damn Act 2 Weaver. I'm losing hope honestly.

my damn summoner witch has 3800 hp and it feels squishy in higher maps

the sooner you accept that a high pool of hp is the #1 defense in this game, and on onslaught/hardcore the #1 thing to stack, the better.

you can go against the grain if you want, and there are builds (ie blender) with high damage output but crappy hp...just realize that you'll die...a lot.


I actually had a few "phases" playing my main since Open Beta started.
first, I tried "going against the grain" and made him a custom build with a more offensive orientation.
then I hit a wall around Act 2 Merciless, and was practically forced to go all-in HP.
finally, after completing Merciless and already running maps a bit, GGG made the "grand mob damage re-balance patch". I took their word for it, and re-specced back into my custom build. this time with better defenses (I also got much better gear), but less DPS.

I still use it today, and also fell in love with Molten Shell and anything related to Endurance Charges - but looking back, oh god what a mistake that re-spec was.
GGG's patch only made things worse because the life nodes nerf made mobs hit even harder relatively to your life pool, than they did previously. and the fact some bosses (i.e Blacksmith) are just insane for their level - made sure the furthest I ever got solo was killing Temple Piety without any mods on the map. it was insane. so many curses and trips to town to refill flasks :)
map Kuduku - for example - just raped my poor melee in seconds despite the charges and flasks. it's impossible to run around in that tight space, or get close to that bastard without being triple-shocked in the process, but what if you have to?

assuming your Witch isn't melee, the fact she has 3800 HP and still feels squishy speaks for itself.
bosses should be tough not because they spam you into submission with an OP attack - forcing you to BiS or die - but because they have good AI and multiple ways to "surprise" you and punish you for mistakes.

only after joining a map group (than expanding it to include some more awesome high level players) did I finally see how level 72+ maps look like, and got to experience the game's awesome unique maps.
that, after 7 months playing...

with only a few months until release and so much still left to do, I honestly have no idea how GGG intend to pull it off.

I understand where you're coming from, but the way armor, evasion and hit point pools work in this game mechanically...it will stay like this. they're not going to change the core of game mechanics.

its kind of an acceptance factor thing. the game is about survivability first, especially on high level maps. just like in D3 at some point you pretty much HAVE to have life leech

you can make a successful character using 99% defensive nodes, but you wont even be close if you go all offense. glass cannon in this game cannot function well because of both combat and numbers mechanics.

path of life nodes or path of es nodes will always apply to this game. you either accept it or move on, imo. it's pretty much the building block of this game unless GGG will attempt radical changes

PS. you dont really need BiS items to max life pool though. just max life on hear, and for melee you just need a good weapon and decent jewelry. for caster, dont even need top jewelry, just a good wand/dagger
also will probably have to accept the fact that melee is gimped compared to range.

re kuduku, topaz flasks and dispel shocked are your friend

as the same summoner, kuduku is really annoying in that it murders minions fast if you arent fast at directing their attacks from the right side and that hes uncursable

but I could take a few of double shock stacked sparks with 80% resists from an overlord (+30% dmg +25% aspd) kuduku by myself and not come close to dying, spamming seething flasks and skellies/zombies

but then, summoners have more targets for sparks to hit, so I guess its still easier than melee
"
grepman wrote:
I understand where you're coming from, but the way armor, evasion and hit point pools work in this game mechanically...it will stay like this. they're not going to change the core of game mechanics.

its kind of an acceptance factor thing. the game is about survivability first, especially on high level maps. just like in D3 at some point you pretty much HAVE to have life leech

you can make a successful character using 99% defensive nodes, but you wont even be close if you go all offense. glass cannon in this game cannot function well because of both combat and numbers mechanics.

path of life nodes or path of es nodes will always apply to this game. you either accept it or move on, imo. it's pretty much the building block of this game unless GGG will attempt radical changes

PS. you dont really need BiS items to max life pool though. just max life on hear, and for melee you just need a good weapon and decent jewelry. for caster, dont even need top jewelry, just a good wand/dagger


epic post, massive +1 to this man

I already showed johnny how easy it is to get much more than 2k hp on a mara w/o spending exalts like crazy, he skipped or ignored my post though.

its 25% reduced, not less, it is not going to take off 1k from your 4k hp lol

As a marauder it is the easiest to get at least 3k life at level 70+, lol. (str stacking)

base and level 77 506
quest 40
400 str 200
coral rings and life belt ~80
tree gives 72
get 40-60 from 8 pieces ~400

at least 180% life from nodes

1298 x 2.8 = 3634 hp

Less than 2k hp ... WTF bro? You should NOT even be in docks lol


"
johnKeys wrote:
bosses should be tough not because they spam you into submission with an OP attack - forcing you to BiS or die - but because they have good AI and multiple ways to "surprise" you and punish you for mistakes.


There is a counter to everything, you have to be ready to think and implement it. Guaranteed 100%. A lot of people are ready to whine on the forums after the first hard boss encounter, instead of learning it and using a different approach. You know this, I know this, we all know this.

This is the one thing I love about poe, you cant just swap on 3% life leech like in diablo 3, and as long as you have enough dps for the monster level, call it a day. Brainless as fek. IF you want to know what a real frustrating gear check is, you should have played release inferno diablo 3. You could NOT progress past act 2 inferno in ANY way if you didnt have the perfect gear in every slot or didnt play a DH with a broken spammable 2 second 100% invulnerability skill (smoke screen). POE is not like this

Are you saying bosses have bad AI / pathfinding?
Are you saying bosses should have weak attacks, easily resisted and / or nullified? Learn what boss means
Are you saying certain bosses dont have multiple attacks at their disposal? (again, you are being a bit hypocritical because you want variety, but you cry your eyes out as soon as they spice up the pathetically easy weaver fight)
Are you saying we dont have well staged boss fights? Piety and vaal are 2 of the best fights ever. EVER (in an arpg from comparing d2 / d3 / poe)

but because they have good AI and multiple ways to "surprise" you and punish you for mistakes. --> Still waiting on that one example on what YOU would implement if the decision was in your hands. What would you change about kole, or map loathe, or false god to meet these criteria you seek? Lmk tnx

Oh and remember your previous suggestions and my replies to them, and the way you ignored replying back because you were lost for words and had zero ideas.


''pull out a new attack'' ... like piety, vaal, and kole all get one attack. /sarcasm And its ironic, you ask for variety, yet CRY your eyes out if weaver gets EK. IRONIC and PATHETIC at the same time!
''respond to your actions'' ... you mean like text ... ''hey that hurt!'' lol ... wtf?
''lead you into traps'' ... this isnt minesweeper or crash bandicoot. And why would you suggest this, when you were crying about perpetus? It makes you look stupid.
''disrupt your attack pattern'' ... like stun? or freeze? what do you mean?
Last edited by ancalagon3000#6581 on Aug 10, 2013, 4:19:34 AM
Sad that the bosses are designed about raw damage.

why not make them ultra fast and spam fans of projectiles which are evadeable?

I dont like it, that you "have to learn to play and use enfeeble"

Those people who are refering to a certain game mechanic and describing it as "skill" to use it are just DUMB.

If you want to learn to play, go play a competitve game and then come back.


Currently "Skill" in PoE means:

-you play much
-you copy guides

If you do those 2 things you can consider yourself "skilled".
@ancalagon3000, although a big part of your post is genuine good advice, you just can't help but trolling can you? throwing those random "Johnny" and "WTF bro? You should NOT even be in docks lol" remarks.

give an example of the kind of boss I want? sure thing: Vaal Oversoul. best boss in the whole game. everything about him starting from AI (positioning, reacting to player actions, following and attempting to disrupt your attack pattern in some cases), and large set of attacks, to the whole fight atmosphere and great music.
would skip all boss fights and fight only him given good enough server sync.

not-so-brief boss recap

Piety - in both forms - is a cheap b***h.
1st form (as well as Temple form) just spams OP attacks.
2nd form jumps from portal to portal like a damn grasshopper, especially in Merciless.

Kole/Brutus is the epitome of a broken boss. a one-hit-wonder who's a complete and total face-roll with a ranged character + Temporal Chains, and a Fing nightmare as melee (even with Enfeeble + Endurance) unless you are head-to-toe in BiS gear.
he also is badly coded and extremely prone to go out of sync and appear right on top of you.

Perpetus? spams Bear Traps with absolutely no delay or cool-down until he gets you, then spams EK until you die. that's what he did to my HC Facebreaker, with quite a bit of help from desync. I hate that bastard because he's BOTH cheap AND overpowered. that's NOT what I meant by "boss leading you into traps".

Merveil? Hailrake on steroids. has exactly 2 attacks in first form (not including super-OP melee, which really makes no sense. how can a sea-witch hit that hard with a sword?), and just spam-summoning in second form.

Fidelitas? one attack. OP as hell.

Gravicius and Megaera? no comment.

should I go on?

even the Rogue Exile fights range from very fun strategy-wise, to cheap spam-fests.


look at Torchlight 2 for inspiration about boss fights: the AI, the speed and "stress factor", the multitude of attacks (including some designed to limit your actions and not just direct-damage you. set you up to take the big hit), the introduction to get you into the whole "big boss fight" mood. only Vaal does anything like this in PoE: the "gears aligning" part before he appears, the rocks and ice attacks, the "sneak-up" he uses when he re-appears and scares the crap out of you.

if I hadn't known better, I'd think GGG created Vaal to show what they CAN do, then thought "well that was some hard work. let's just make all other bosses hit hard and spam and be done with it".
pardon me any devs reading this, but even "future fixes" to bosses seem half-baked at best.
"yeah let's give EK to Weaver/Hybrid Widow. that would work".
sure. why not give her spam-able Bear Traps as well? hell, just change Perpetus' visual model and put him in a lair full of spiders.

---------------------------------------------

you and me both agree with Grepman's post. the only question is, are you ok with "path of life nodes" being the building block of the game, or do you share my opinion - that it can and should be better and a lot more complex than that?
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on Aug 10, 2013, 2:59:40 PM
stupid thread..... that boss is not even hard.... you probably dont know how to play.... just for calculating stats, you cant beat the games.
My_Bloody_Valentine

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