[1.2.0] Ice Pierce Crit Ranger
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!! As of July 7, 2015, 3 days before 2.0 Awakening release, this guide is officially retired. Previous edit before this one was September of 2014, shortly before I left town for several months without Path of Exile access. The game moved on while I was away. It happens. Link to more detailed reasons here.
Recently (as of time of original post, mind you, it's been well over a year since then) I've been seeing more threads asking about ice shot builds, and crit builds. Seeing as I have had one for a while, and have been actively answering those threads with advice from experience, I thought I'd share. Build video (disclaimer: not made by me! I'll get to one someday but this will have to do for now) If you have a question relevant to the build, please post it in the thread instead of spamming my forum PM inbox. You might get sage advice from other people who are also following the build, in addition to my response. And I get free publicity, so it's a win-win situation. Thank you for your cooperation. This guide is valid for SC. Standard disclaimer on playing it in HC: still viable, BUT - like any other crit build - you have to be particularly careful regarding reflect and especially if you're using a Glare. A non-crit version is completely HC viable without this issue. Guide below is current as of 1.2.0. Let me know if I missed anything.
What's ice pierce and why?
Ice pierce just means Ice Shot with a 100% chance to pierce. The reason for this is simple: when ice shot hits a target, it deals 40% cold (converted) and 60% physical damage to it, plus an AoE of 100% cold (converted) damage. It does this even if the shot pierces the target, so that a second target behind the first takes both the AoE from the first target and the hit from the arrow. Large groups kick this up a notch, as a target can take multiple AoEs along with the primary arrow hit.
To achieve 100% pierce chance, the Piercing Arrows keystone is taken (35%) along with the Projectile Weakness curse or Pierce gem (59% + 0.75% per 1% quality). The quiver Drillneck is also very useful, as it increases damage quite significantly and negates the need for quality on PW/Pierce. This build requires no quality gems or expensive gear to function well in maps. As always, though, good gems and gear provide a noticeable increase in both damage and survivability.
So, crit on bows?
Bows have only 5% innate crit, and the core passive tree (see below) gives only 440% increased bow crit for about 27%. That's not reliable crit, unfortunately, but there are ways to increase it. The build is within range of a significant number of smaller crit nodes, power charges give a whopping 50% per charge, and then there are items like Maligaro's.
The easier way is simply to get a nice bow with local increased crit chance. As of 1.0.0, that would be a well rolled Harbinger Bow.
Pros and Cons
Pros
- Incredible mob clearing AoE - Freeze/chill locking makes this a very safe build Cons - Reflect damage kills you if you're not careful - Need to make particular arrangements for party play or suffer DPS loss - Ice Shot may cause FPS lag to people with lower-end computers (need to double check: this may not be an issue post 1.0.0, but I'm not the one with the lower-end computer)
Skills and Supports
No quality gems required. If looking for quality, first get a Projectile Weakness/Pierce of at least 8% (unless you plan on using Drillneck all the way), then the usual apply (xMP, LoH, etc). Quality is not required on Ice Shot.
Ice Shot - LMP/GMP - LoH - BM or Mana Leech (LMP for damage, GMP for spread) Frenzy/Burning Arrow - Added Fire - Faster Attacks, Weapon Elemental Damage and/or Culling Strike (or your choice of other supports) Reduced Mana - Hatred - (if possible, your choice of: Grace, Wrath, Purity, Haste, Determination) (skip auras if using BM keystone) Everything else: Projectile Weakness, traps, skeletotem, etc For 5L, or if taking BM keystone (or sustaining on mana), add WED as first choice. Depending on socket colours, fill in the next socket(s) with your choice from the following: Power Charge on Critical, Concentrated Effect, increased AoE, crit chance, crit damage, cold pen, faster attacks, added fire. I strongly recommend cold pen. When you have enough damage on your bow, and enough max mana, it's possible to remove the mana leech gem link and sustain your main skill on physical mana leech, since Ice Shot's initial hit does physical damage. It isn't a lot, but at endgame with a good weapon, it might be enough. (Barely. It also scales terribly with attack speed, which sucks, but it does free up a socket for cold pen or whatever other gem you're using.) With enough links of the right colours, consider using a Pierce gem for chance to pierce, and then casting Assassin's Mark for increased damage and power charges. Pierce gem is also very useful in a party, since you won't always get to curse Projectile Weakness. The choice between Frenzy and Burning Arrow is yours. The difference is this: Frenzy attacks faster. It also builds frenzy stacks for higher attack speed with Ice Shot while they last. Burning Arrow deals overall more damage per hit, especially since the amount of burning damage caused by a crit is substantial. Also, I tend to kill myself in phys reflect maps using single target Frenzy, while I've never had that problem with Burning Arrow. 1.2.0 update: Tornado Shot with LMP/GMP is actually really solid single-target due to shotgunning. Consider running PCoC with your single-target if you like micromanaging charges. This is hands down the most socket-efficient way to keep up power charges, but is very micro-intensive. A dedicated Ice Spear also works, but is less efficient on both time and sockets.
Build
This character can be built from a Ranger, Duelist or Shadow start.
Remember, all of the build links are SUGGESTED builds, and you should always seek to tailor a build to your own play style, available gear and acceptable level of risk. Leveling up, first take a roundabout route to Piercing Shots, picking up Ondar's Guile on the way. Then spec into the usual passives: crit, HP, IAS. Your build will probably look something like this around level 70, assuming you choose not to spec Frenzy charges. Do seriously consider taking the WED nodes, they are still good especially if you have a lot of flat elemental damage on gear. Pick up Frenzy charges if you wish, since Blood Rage is reasonably sustainable on HP, or if you chose Frenzy for your primary single target attack. This might necessitate a minor rerouting of your passive tree for point efficiency. From there, I would probably pick up Charisma, or take some more HP and resists with the option to pick up VP along the way. If going for BM, you want to go there early. Fill in other points according to the above, but you will have to prioritise. Iron Grip is right over there too, as a sort of consolation prize for not running auras on mana. It's good in its own right though, and for just one point, well worth it. Though honestly, BM isn't. Other notes on keystones and routes: - The other route from ranger start is more than viable, a trade of %evasion and %HP for attack speed. Or just do both. - Mind Drinker in the Shadow start is a good node to pick up when you have sufficient damage - if not going BM, of course - as the physical damage from initial IS hits will return mana, and it's the easiest way to sustain a single-target skill. - EB is just a few points away, definitely worth considering to solve mana issues. - I've seen people pick up Vaal Pact on this build, and that's their prerogative. After the 1.1.0 changes, though, and considering the effectiveness of LoH, I don't recommend it. - Go ahead and pick up IR and possibly US, but spec out of Ondar's Guile if you choose to do so. - On the flip side, go ahead and pick up Acrobatics and maybe Phase Acrobatics too. - There are many accuracy nodes within range, you will probably want to pick up a few of them unless you are using a Glare. I had a couple of examples of non-crit builds here which were broken by 1.2.0 and I can't really be bothered to remake them. Sorry.
Bandit rewards
Normal: 40 HP (Oak)
Cruel: 18% IPD or skill point (Oak or kill all, respectively) Merciless: Power Charge, Frenzy Charge or skill point (Alira, Kraityn or kill all, respectively) When in doubt, just take the skill point. It's fine.
Items
Stats:
Get a high physical damage bow as your first priority. Local increased crit% on the bow itself works very well. Get, as always, as much IAS as you can. Consider getting a couple of % mana leech on gear, thus saving the point on Mind Drinker, if not going BM. (If BM, life leech. You know the drill.) Naturally, you want as much of HP and resists as you can get. Options: - Take a dual curse unique (Windscream, Doedre's Damning) and use Critical Weakness in addition to Projectile Weakness. - Like every other build, feel free to search for base elemental damage and % increased weapon elemental damage on accessories and uniques. Uniques good for the build: - Berek's Grip (free life/mana leech yes please) - Kaom's Heart (self explanatory) - Carcass Jack (AoE) - Voll's Protector (Power Charges, real quick) - Wake of Destruction, Thunderfist (Lightning damage on crack) - Maligaro's Virtuosity (Crit chance and damage) - Chin Sol (It pretty much straight up doubles your damage at close range, which is a safe enough place to be with freeze/chill lock. Also, I am a sucker for damage multipliers.) - Lioneye's Glare (self explanatory) - Drillneck (ditto) Special mention to the Thief's Torment ring for mana sustain. Best decision I ever made, replaces the need for the BM keystone or gem. Even beats Berek's Grip because the life and mana return are instant. As always, the list is not exhaustive and common sense is recommended.
Leveling up
Do anything you like from 1-19.
When you get LMP, switch to iceshot. When you get Projectile Weakness, start casting it. You'll notice huge damage jumps at two points: one is when you get Piercing Arrows in passive, the other is when you start cursing. Add a mana leech or blood magic gem somewhere along the line, preferably as soon as possible. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll have several levels at least between when you start feeling the mana crunch and when you reach the BM keystone, if planning on BM, or when you reach sustainability on mana, otherwise. And you want to add LoH too, just for the added survivability. Fill in single target, utility, etc skills as they happen.
Playstyle
Cast PW. Start shooting. Not rocket science, folks. If you're feeling brave, run right up to a group of monsters, cast PW, and THEN start shooting. With 100% pierce chance, your area coverage is only limited by the range of your arrows. If they're hexproof, you have only your base 35% pierce chance from passive tree. Shoot anyway.
In large map groups, consider switching to LA to stack shock quickly, if nobody else is doing it. Against bosses, you generally want to raise a skeletotem or decoy totem to distract them.
Dealing with reflect
No distinction is made between phys and ele reflect. Both are liable to get you killed for carelessness, though ele reflect does it more spectacularly.
For reflect rares, consider taking the big one out with your single target primary attack (don't worry about body blocking, we have >96% pierce chance, remember?) then clearing it as normal. Be particularly careful if doing this, since the damage dealt by your single-target attack is still reflected to yourself. Otherwise, use the conversion trap trick. Reflect maps are easier, because you can prepare for them. Do take both LL and LoH into a reflect map if at all possible, replacing your WED gem (which has the side effect of lowering damage too. Two for one, yay!) LoH is very good against reflect, since the hits are actually staggered due to projectile travel time, while the HP return is instant. This will prevent you from dying in one shot, and LL can then heal you to full afterward, if necessary. Also, do be careful not to let your single-target reflect damage kill you. With LoH and a Thief's Torment, I have 62 LoH. I don't even see my HP drop, crit or otherwise, in a reflect map. Ele reflect minus max is as much of a killer as ever, though. More's the pity.
Help I'm running out of mana, what do?
The first and easiest way is to link a mana leech gem into IS. Alternatively, if you have sufficient LL/LoH, link a BM gem to it. Thief's Torment returns mana on hit, which is a Really Good Thing. Soul Siphon cluster returns mana on kill, which is somewhat less useful but still pretty good.
When you have sufficient DPS, you can possibly start to rely on physical mana leech. Most of IS's damage is elemental, but there's that 60% of initial hit, so if that's big enough then it'll return enough mana to work with. This is just about sufficient around the point you're doing 70+ maps, but it starts being useful a few levels earlier. (And generally speaking only if you're using LMP, because the cost difference in using GMP is huge.) At some point, you might run into the leech cap (12.5% of max mana per second). Get mana on gear, or take EB, or mana nodes or whatever. Personally, I ran with physical mana leech and Thief's Torment, with a fair amount of mana on gear for a total of about 650 max mana. It was mostly sufficient for 6 links (IS GMP LoH WED Pierce PCoC, total demand averages 350 mana per second), and entirely insufficient when substituting Faster Attacks over Pierce.
Q&A
Why not LA?
Oh, this build can definitely work with LA, I even hang on to an LA gem to switch in sometimes. I find that IS cleans up groups very well, while LA tends to leave scattered mobs. Also, IS is much safer than LA, because of the guaranteed chill and sometimes freeze. Overall, I much prefer IS. LA enthusiasts may want to consider checking out theWombo's frost wall abuse build. Do you use a totem? If so, which one? Your choice. Good options are skeletons, decoy totem, or arc or shocknova totem for shock stacking independent of your bow. There was one guy on this forum who used an ice spear totem...each to his own, I suppose. I've got a skeletotem and a ranged attack totem hanging around. What gear are you using?
My current gear
How's the build working out for you? Pretty well actually, character reached level 86, last few levels were done primarily in high maps with a group. I have 47.7% crit chance. Went full glass cannon, relying on iceshot and personal micro skill to survive. Still working, though you almost definitely want to be tankier than this. Capable of doing any map any mod (pre-1.0.0), though I still need to make actual preparations for reflect maps and I still prefer to let someone else deal with Temple Piety. Note that these numbers were tested before 1.0.0 was released, but 1.0.0 did not hit this build very hard. Neither did 1.1.0, for that matter. " Hang on, why aren't you using Concentrated Effect? I feel that the area reduction is significant, and I have no increased AoE nodes to offset it, nor Carcass Jack. I am also not currently using the BM keystone, so I do not have sufficient sockets. As an alternative, by running Hatred on mana, I can gain an effective 36% more damage without any AoE radius reduction. How do you map in a group if you can't curse with Projectile Weakness? Switch to LA and be the group shockstacker. Swap Pierce into the 5th or 6th gem slot, assuming it's the right colour, and keep on going as normal. Just shoot and be the group cc-bot with IS, if someone else is doing LA already. Change to Lochtonial Caress gloves and spread the frenzy and power charge love. Your choice. It's not like this build has terrible damage without PW to the point of unplayability, it remains fine. What about shock stacking? With sufficient additional lightning damage (read: Wrath) and crit multiplier, every crit stacks shock, if it doesn't outright kill the mob. If that's still not enough for you, just place an Arc or Shock Nova totem.
Minor skill tree change in 1.0.2
For 1.0.2 the math is as follows:
(old) 70 multiplier 6 ipd 25 chance vs (new, requires 2 additional points) 10 dex 52 ipd 40 chance 50 multiplier The difference is 46% ipd (that's not a small amount), 15% crit chance (every little bit, right?) and -20 multiplier (boo); I assume everyone has dex anyway, 10 more or less doesn't make a difference. For 2 points, I reckon that's definitely worth it!
List of relevant changes in 1.2.0
About the author
Kiri is a reroll addict with a penchant for big numbers, less popular skills, and building around specific items and playstyles.
Kiri is happy to take PMs and in-game questions, and will stream on request. How to make a build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/510084 Current guides: N/A Last edited by Kirielis on Aug 8, 2015, 7:19:09 AM
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Some perspective from the HC non-crit side of the pond, from ckay27
" " How to make a build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/510084 Current guides: N/A Last edited by Kirielis on Oct 25, 2013, 12:10:02 AM
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Hello Kirielis,
Thank you for posting your build. I am very new to the game(started little over a week ago) but I have been working off this build and I am now 62 almost 63 and enjoying it very much so. I have yet to find a 5L and I am trying to stay very close to your build. Again being new(but I am learning fast :) can you please clarify more on the Skills and Support? Does Reduced Mana(is this a gem?) work with all auras linked to it? if so the idea here is to find a 3 or 4 link item and put Reduced Mana in it and then all aruas? and you state to cast with BM? so need to have a Blood Magic gem in this also? What amount of LoH/LL do you have? This can substain the HP loss and getting hit by mobs? Also on I have been using Frenzy (have 6 charges now) to kill Elemental Reflect mobs, i do not have anything linked to it like Burning Arrow, just Mana Leech and Life Leech. is this bad? I am not going to take BM keystone so I am a bit confused on the 5L you have listed. What would you put in the 5L if you do not have BM keystone? Just curious what Level are you and do you have any problems farming ACT 3 Merciless? Thanks | |
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I have been looking for a little while now for something like this. I played a shadow claw multi dual strike up to 70, but i wanted something ranged to mix it up. I started playing with ice shot and love the safety that you mention that comes along with it.
I've book marked this thread and i plan to try and follow your build. Thanks again keep up the good work. | |
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Hey Demetrio, thanks for the encouragement! By the way, I'm loving that Bloodseeker I got from you. =D
To answer NavyElk's questions: " Yes " Malachai's Simula, The Covenant. Switch in BM item, cast auras, switch back to regular gear. Aura remains on HP. " I've got a LL gem and heal 20% of my max HP per second. This more than covers the cost of Ice Shot, and I don't take a lot of hits once I start shooting. " Nope. You're fine. I prefer to just shoot without cursing first, because as it turns out, I actually survive that. Have to kite and let my LL heal me a little between shots, but it works. " My 5L is IS - GMP - BM - LL - WED. Weapon Elemental Damage. Cold pen would be the ideal next link, which you can add if you took the BM keystone. " Currently, oh, 74. No trouble in act 3 merciless. Trouble with map flicker spiders and Blacksmith, because I am terrible at this game. (Solution to flicker spiders SHOULD be skeletotem and taking them out at range before they flicker to you. Solution to Blacksmith SHOULD be bear traps and skeletotem, possibly with blind. I'm just really lazy and tend to run headfirst into everything without looking or preparing, and it screws me over a lot.) Update: Kiri needs to seriously think about mana issues and possibly pick up mana nodes. How to make a build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/510084
Current guides: N/A | |
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Hi Kiri,
actually I'm trying this - which is no crit physical/projectile Ice shot build:
Spoiler
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQABH4FLQW1BfkM8g6tD6sV8BcdGNsZ_hrbGwEhYCP2JT8mlSi1KaUqWyyFLOkyATIJNYY1kjY9Nns6UjpYOrM-z0CgQzFDnEp9TshRR1M1VUtWBFb6WhpaSFuvYEtgiGFSYeJh62egapNtbG17crt07XTxelN674ZghxmHdo19jX6Nv5AKmyabLZ2qnrmfy6GkokCjiqXLp9Sqf6q4shm0GrVItkG3trnNvea-p8APxKLLQc2Yz3rSGdJN1e3W0d0N3sbfb9-_4svndOpi6xTuDu9O7_D0-Plj-rH8xf7I Probably it's having an advantage that I don't get 1 shotted by making a crit. I'm doing like 1.8K DPS (frenzy 6 charges, 3 sockets) and 500 DPS (chain + LMP) with Ice shot. It's going so far so good on Onslught - yes, this is HC viable. Currently being on Act 2 merciless lvl 63. MY CHALLENGES ARE DONE ON HC, IT'S NOT SC GUYS! Last edited by Filousov on Jul 9, 2013, 5:36:37 AM
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I can't speak for HC viability, my play style is not HC at all, although I can say for sure that I have never died to anything except my own stupidity or carelessness or laziness. In my previous post, I have mentioned that I found a method of dealing with reflect which does not get me killed on crit. Now, if I could only stop getting myself killed on stupidity.
As for straight no-crit damage stacking, I would say it is more than viable. I've got several, and I would say that it is both easier and cheaper to run a damage build than a crit one. But, y'know, that's not what I'm doing. Also, I did some fooling around with the Voll's linked above. WED is more consistent. Already it was feeling like I killed relatively slowly unless I got a crit, but losing the WED gem in favour of even more crit made the swinginess almost unbearable. (Note, just because I "feel" that I'm killing slowly does not mean I actually do. I'm an impatient person.) How to make a build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/510084
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If you want my opinion, this build isn't that much different from the build I'm currently running, which is basically VictorDoom's Physical Crit build, with the exception that I'm cold-based as well. You can find my build and gear here: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/53795/page/93#p3926998
But there are minute differences that can be done. My build involves RoA and Frenzy, but this build can also use Frenzy to great effect as well. So something like this: Build here. Skills: - Frenzy for single-target; increased physical damage also increases the cold damage done from Hatred and Icebite. Linked with Faster Attacks, Mana Leech, Increased Crit Chance, and WED for the best combo a 5L can get you. (I consider 5Ls attainable, not 6Ls.) - Ice Shot for AoE. Like Frenzy, it gets buffed with Hatred and Icebite. Linked with LMP, Pierce, Increased Crit Chance, and WED. LMP and WED will skyrocket Iceshot's mana cost, so getting +mana and mana leech on gear is important. DPS isn't so important compared to crowd control, and that's what Iceshot is designed to do. Personally I don't think Ele/phys reflect is a major issue unless you have a really low HP pool and/or high crit mult. Use Frenzy to build up frenzy charges and gain IAS that way. - Auras include Grace and Hatred. Depending on your gear, you may not need Determination or Purity (+ rez on all gear, high evasion/armor), which is great because then you use the rest of your mana pool for sustaining Ice Shot. Frenzy should be self-sufficient on Mana Leech, and using Hybrid Flasks + manaleech from Mind Drinker and/or gear should cover the mana cost sufficiently. Currently I run Determination because my main chest armor is a tad low, but its sort of optional and I can sustain it. - Miscellaneous skills include anything from Skeletotem to Decoy Totem and Bear Trap. Curse-wise, going Projectile Weakness and Critical Weakness is great, but I also suggest using Temporal Chains. That spell will not only keep chilled mobs even slower to move (and increased the duration of the chill/freeze), it also keeps mobs on the patches of ice even longer, taking further damage. Temporal Chains is a must-have for any ice-based builds because it really enhances the crowd-control along with cold damage. Unlike the Frostbite curse, Temporal Chains is a dex/int skill and doesn't require 150 Int to max out. For Ranger build tips, tactics, and critiques, visit this thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/69224 Last edited by Islidox on Jul 9, 2013, 9:57:57 AM
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Yes, I saw VictorDoom's phys crit build. It's good; however, it isn't my build. To my understanding, yours is RoA, using Hatred for additional cold damage, yes?
Interestingly enough - I don't take icebite. This was a conscious decision and I stand by my decision. As mentioned, I am still testing out the ideal (read: my favourite) single-target skill combo. I have a lot of random leveled gems lying around. Be assured that there are many different combinations which do work. You know, maybe I should include a leveling advice section in the OP. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but Ice Shot in the endgame is 100% not sustainable on mana without some serious work into it, or spamming mana flasks (and even that is debatable, depending on skill setup.) Not only does gear mana leech not work - essentially forcing you into the mana leech gem - sustained fire even with it is an impossibility below about 1000 mana. Though IS - LMP - ML - LoH is sustainable just fine on mana, if you're wondering. Oh, and by the way, my multiprojectile support of choice is GMP. Good luck with that. Better luck if you want to Concentrated Effect it. Let me just say that one more time, if anybody hasn't caught it yet: Mind Drinker and mana leech on gear do NOTHING for Ice Shot. The primary damage source for the Ice Shot skill is the AoE, which is 100% converted and does not deal any physical damage. Reflect is very significant. My specific build, as described in the OP, involves Projectile Weakness (40% more damage) as well as a hidden damage multiplier (how many AoEs can you get to hit one target?) and it WILL kill you to crit into a reflect group that has been cursed with PW. Guaranteed. I cannot stress this enough, pay attention to reflect. Other builds - including a couple of mine - breeze through reflect like it doesn't exist. Not this one. Okay? Frenzy charges? Say hi to Blood Rage, that works too. Curses? I did mention that this build absolutely revolves around 100% chance to pierce, right? If you're lucky enough to have a cold penetration gem linked (read: if you're using the BM keystone with a 5L, or have a 6L), then you can put Pierce over it and curse TC. You lose a ton of DPS in exchange for the ton of survivability TC gives you. I should point out that IS deals damage on hit only. Ground ice is ground ice, it doesn't deal damage in and of itself. To do, 0.11.2: - update reflect section, because apparently totems reflect damage to you now too, who knew. - include leveling section - offer a no-crit straight damage variant, just because I think it might be interesting - general cleanup How to make a build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/510084
Current guides: N/A | |
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i have been using a ice shot crit build on my ranger for a while now its lively
only difference is i dont use pierce, but i use chain. I noticed a HUGEEEE difference in how fast things die. MUCH MUCH MUCH faster with chain. Specially for scattered monsters situation. My issue right now is how to deal with reflect really... with 6k hp and 75 all res, i die INSTANTLY to reflect lol. Im doing 13k dps with LMP + Chains on my iceshot. The setup i was using for Pierce before was cool, but I felt a huge improvement by choosing chain over pierce. Still cant figure out a way to deal with reflect, its just too much damage. I was thinkin maybe going vaal pact but nehhhhhh I guess i could drop some crit nodes for more HP nodes, but feels very inefficient. There are only 6% hp nodes left and tbh i feel confortable at 6K hp after reserve. Just dont know what to do with reflect anymore. Reflect maps are not an issue as much, ill switch wep ele damage for life on hit. My issue is killing myself to a reflect pack THAT IS NOT EVEN ON MY SCREEN YET. This sucks major balls, I have been stuck at level 94 due to this... I die too often to reflect packs (not map) |
