3.29.0b Hotfix 2

Still cant do the moist delve without crash

You Fubgun minions are exhausting. Abyss is shit loot and they have said that they are fixing that. Everything else is fine.

All I see is "buff loot" when the league mechanic provides it and more. GGG, the game is not a looting simulator it's an Arpg. Rmters are the loudest ones.

Cool shader fix guys game just doesn't turns on anymore 👍

Thanks, but I still don't see why this was part of 0b in the first place, unless the Zarokh's Temporal Weapon Effect was missing its 2D art because shader storage was bugged, the fix wasn't tested on a diverse enough base of machines, and it broke hundreds/tens of/thousands of users. This seems like a very bad lead call, or someone screwed up their commits.

Maybe rolling out hard to test core changes on day three of the league isn't the play here. Didn't you used to quietly push these patches out about three weeks in, when most people won't be bothered by it but you can still get feedback?

I also question some architectural choices here. You seem to have tens to hundreds of thousands of unique shaders. I assume they are auto generated from source options in some combinatorial fashion, probably spat out from the art pipeline where artists can configure options visually. This is bad. Someone needs to sit down and find a way of combining these back together before they hit assets. Shipping 12k shaders is utter insanity. Minutes of shader compilation to load six peoples' MTX and a 10 year old townscape is shocking. Maybe you're doing texture compression at the same time, so maybe a sizeable fraction of a second is called for.

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Genstein#2693 wrote:

Thanks, but I still don't see why this was part of 0b in the first place, unless the Zarokh's Temporal Weapon Effect was missing its 2D art because shader storage was bugged, the fix wasn't tested on a diverse enough base of machines, and it broke hundreds/tens of/thousands of users. This seems like a very bad lead call, or someone screwed up their commits.

Maybe rolling out hard to test core changes on day three of the league isn't the play here. Didn't you used to quietly push these patches out about three weeks in, when most people won't be bothered by it but you can still get feedback?

The change was rolled out as part of the initial league launch patch, not on day three. The shader issue that happened in .0b is unrelated to the shader storage, that was just an unfortunate accident.

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Genstein#2693 wrote:

I also question some architectural choices here. You seem to have tens to hundreds of thousands of unique shaders. I assume they are auto generated from source options in some combinatorial fashion, probably spat out from the art pipeline where artists can configure options visually. This is bad. Someone needs to sit down and find a way of combining these back together before they hit assets. Shipping 12k shaders is utter insanity. Minutes of shader compilation to load six peoples' MTX and a 10 year old townscape is shocking. Maybe you're doing texture compression at the same time, so maybe a sizeable fraction of a second is called for.

You are underestimating the magnitude of the problem and the freedom that artists have when authoring shaders substantially. To keep this short - the shader problem began about 7+ years ago or so, and recombining the shaders back now is not practically feasable.
To give some numbers, PoE1 currently ships with roughly 300.000 shaders, PoE2 with roughly 600.000 shaders - per backend.

There have been many improvements done to shader loading over the past 6-7 years, with many more ideas (like different ideas for recombining the shaders) being discussed multiple times. The improvements to the shader storage is just one (quite minor, actually) entry in the long list of improvements that have happened over time. But, at the same time, the game is getting new content, new assets, new mechanics - and, with that, a bunch of new shaders every league, so it's an up-hill battle.

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Bizzarrus#1403 wrote:

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Genstein#2693 wrote:

Thanks, but I still don't see why this was part of 0b in the first place, unless the Zarokh's Temporal Weapon Effect was missing its 2D art because shader storage was bugged, the fix wasn't tested on a diverse enough base of machines, and it broke hundreds/tens of/thousands of users. This seems like a very bad lead call, or someone screwed up their commits.

Maybe rolling out hard to test core changes on day three of the league isn't the play here. Didn't you used to quietly push these patches out about three weeks in, when most people won't be bothered by it but you can still get feedback?

The change was rolled out as part of the initial league launch patch, not on day three. The shader issue that happened in .0b is unrelated to the shader storage, that was just an unfortunate accident.

I could well believe that, but the fix the applied cited shader storage, so I'm not completely certain that's the case (or isn't the case). As you say, it is unfortunate regardless.

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Bizzarrus#1403 wrote:

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Genstein#2693 wrote:

I also question some architectural choices here. You seem to have tens to hundreds of thousands of unique shaders. I assume they are auto generated from source options in some combinatorial fashion, probably spat out from the art pipeline where artists can configure options visually. This is bad. Someone needs to sit down and find a way of combining these back together before they hit assets. Shipping 12k shaders is utter insanity. Minutes of shader compilation to load six peoples' MTX and a 10 year old townscape is shocking. Maybe you're doing texture compression at the same time, so maybe a sizeable fraction of a second is called for.

You are underestimating the magnitude of the problem and the freedom that artists have when authoring shaders substantially. To keep this short - the shader problem began about 7+ years ago or so, and recombining the shaders back now is not practically feasable.
To give some numbers, PoE1 currently ships with roughly 300.000 shaders, PoE2 with roughly 600.000 shaders - per backend.

There have been many improvements done to shader loading over the past 6-7 years, with many more ideas (like different ideas for recombining the shaders) being discussed multiple times. The improvements to the shader storage is just one (quite minor, actually) entry in the long list of improvements that have happened over time. But, at the same time, the game is getting new content, new assets, new mechanics - and, with that, a bunch of new shaders every league, so it's an up-hill battle.

This is informative, thanks. Those are some hair-raising numbers. I'm not suggesting someone literally look to recombine the shaders through parsing and some procedural recombination - though that doesn't seem impossible to offer some gains if there are 300k-600k shaders, just maybe not high enough gains for the effort - but that the pipeline needs to change.

If it's literally artist shader nodes -> graph -> runtime shader then that's the core issue surely? There is a missing step here. A survey of shaders (random sampling even) should spot commonalities. A start could be made. A lot of pipelines spit out switches for a selection of master shaders from day 1. There might be hundreds, but not hundreds of thousands. Compile those and bind options for different materials. I can entirely believe that's easy to say, hard to do at this point, but I'd expect a lot of artists follow their own patterns and amongst a few hundred k shaders there is a good portion which are essentially the same shader duplicated.

In any event this has terrible scalability as is as you point out, and if the underlying storage is receiving dev time, and this is having these knock on effects... But maybe this is already happening, who knows.

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evovolvo#5267 wrote:

You Fubgun minions are exhausting. Abyss is shit loot and they have said that they are fixing that. Everything else is fine.

Guess you didnt play this game back when there were aspirational endgame farms then?

does not work lol

Game still crashes to desktop non stop every 5-10 mins. Been having this issue for the past 2-3 days now with no improvements. Completely unable to play the game.

Never had this issue before until 3 days ago