Devs: A lengthy discussion on combat mechanics, POE vs D3

When I first played D3 during open beta weekend I loved the combat and came back here and asked GGG to implement the system of some skills filling mana/life(blood magic) while others using it. It forces you to use more then one skill.
Btw using one attack skill is the bigger problem with casters then melée/archery characters.
Then D3 came out and like many people I went to play it for few weeks before coming back here. But during that time I was saying to myself how a perfect arpg would be a blend of D3 and PoE. I still want that game :)

the people who want no cooldown got there skills already,
we already have some skills becoming obsolete
like infernal blow (i think)
adding more of the same would be pointless,
so they just need to fill in the gaps.

What we need now are utility skills and non spamable skills
ice wall or phase run are good examples of utility skills
adding huge aoe skills or high single target damage skills or skills whit utility like giving a slowing effect.

this would add the choice of going for allot of skills (whit cd)
or just sticking to fewer skills and specializing in it
of course those 2 need to be balanced

what i don't get tho is why people are so against this.
its like throwing a party where you invite everyone, but you only have beer to drink and allow nothing else, when people ask why don't you have anything else, you reply: well i don't like anything other then beer.

come on don't be selfish now,
Last edited by dragonbite on Jul 25, 2012, 10:01:08 AM
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Antilurker77 wrote:
I agree that PoE's combat needs a huge overhaul. What we have right now is simply not up to modern game standards. While D3 has an excellent combat system, it isn't the only way to do things.

Right now, I think PoE would benefit hugely from more utility skills. Stuff like Frost Wall are good because you aren't just spamming them all time; you use the skill based on your current situation. It makes combat less mindless and repetitive which is what PoE is suffering from right now.


I compleatly agree, is not cooldowns that make the game less repetitive, is the utility skills.

The problem is similar because most utility skill need a cooldown or risk to become too owerpowered.


For example: I wanted to do a pure int fire witch when I started (before I knew nothing about the game), but the lack of utility was not letting me do that.

I ended with a Minion/Fire where my minions is what I use as utilities.
Zombies are tanks that keep enemies away from me.
Skeletons are my utility belt (walking bombs, blocking mobs at the door, shields against ranged attacks, totem killing machines, etc...)
Firestorm with increasead aoe is needed because minions tend to wherever they please. so that is my spammable attack.
Single Fireball are for finishing off rares/single mobs.

I have some utilities as a minion witch because of the skeletons, but I use them that way because I can not because they are utility skills.


This is in response to the OP only.

I too played D3 upon release and was actually one of the first to hit 60. I used my vaca time to jam in over 80 hours of gameplay in the first few days of release only really stopping to sleep and eat.

I quickly got bored of my Barb since he was so vastly underwpowered to my friends DH, suffice to say, I full quit the game after a few weeks.

I ended up PAYING for my POE beta key and thus here are my remarks to what you said:

First off, I dont think its quite an apples to apples comparing a monk to a witch in this game, some of the mechanics you brought up dont apply comparing a wizard in D3 to a witch in PoE. As a Monk, yes you spam different abilities, the mobility and attack speed are very noticable switching from the monk to say a caster in PoE. I can tell you I played a Barb and while I did use things like Leap, charge, frenzie etc. I can tell you my "skill routine" always was the same thing over and over.. Leap in, attack, charge out, sheild wall and WoTB when needed.

In Poe I play a templar and am using like 4 skills on a regular basis. I feel the combat directly ties over as being about the same pace as D3, while the "fluent" combat is better in D3, the Devs are aware of this and are going to reduce the "attack animation" after a swing to make it more fast paced.

ONTO SKILLS:
The Devs have also already announced they are going to be adding a TON of new skills to PoE for OB. I would also like to point out your comparing a finished game to a closed beta game, so of course things are not going to be finished yet.

The other MAJOR thing I want to point out is that your "Monk" is almost identical to every other monk in existence in D3... Versus in PoE I bet your witch has others that are close in passive skill tree but even things like skill/gem rotation and a few points in a different spot can change the way you play and even unique gear gives a different play style... My experience in D3 is there are a few "staple" builds (if you can even call them builds) that 99% of the players choose, I dont see that as an issue in PoE at all...

I would also like to point out that you said you played exclusively for PVP and PVE was a chore... could this be why you did not like the OB so much? PVP is coming and I would bet my life that itll beat D3s pvp even when D3 has more "finished" combat... PoE blows it out of the water in terms of design...

So while I agree the combat needs tuneing and I agree we need more skill gems, I dont quite think comparing the two does anything...
I think it might be good idea to implement some pvp-only skills that have cooldowns.
Last edited by Melmak on Jul 25, 2012, 5:17:24 PM
Well, thanks for some good discussion. I'm off to bed but tomorrow i'm ready for some more debate on the matter.
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When I learned that seven sided strike had a cooldown in d3, I was extremely letdown. Maybe a 5 or 10 second cooldown is okay, but anymore is pointless to me.


If it didn't have a CD you would be invincible as a monk since you can't take damage during its animation. Doesn't mean I am defending D3s skill system as I am not a fan of MMO mechanics either, just pointing out that no CD on that skill would have been horrible horrible game design.
longtime diablo / ex-blizzboy...

One of the major issues with Blizz is that they've inherently designed OP type skills into the game for the sake of their "new audience" aka noobs and kids that have parents who open their wallets.

The result? laziness and the resulting micromanagement we see today which is absolutely frustrating, counter-productive.

Also more importantly counter-intuitive; for ex. let's puff our chests about varied encounters that require different skills to manage.. then lets appease the gear addiction with magic find / valor points..

then what? let's wipe the valor if you try to change your build between fights.. eventually the left and right hand have no idea what they're doing.

if you wish to develop a skill that you believe needs a cooldown over 10-15 seconds because it'd be too good.. stop being lazy and please address the design issue. DO NOT add a useless band-aid skill for bad players to use as a source of hope.

this is an ACTION rpg.. instead of OP skills with long cooldowns and more percieved "control" by yourselves as you nerf and turf in the name of "balance"..

...spend your time wisely and instead, develop further encounter scenario types and provide us with more quick hitting abilities for skill rotations that WE NEED TO ORGANIZE OURSELVES.

maintain the "spam and die" philosophy.. avoid the a,b,c,c,b,a skill cooldown design of boredom like it's the plague. Allow us to watch the game and pay attention to the action.. not force our attention onto the skillbar and a row of icon timers.

don't listen to "i don't have enough resources" types. i currently enjoy having to think about which buffs/charges/attacks i'm using per encounter because of resource limitations.

don't listen to people who call for cooldowns because they rely on kiting aound like idiots until they're allowed to call their mommy every 3 minutes.

BTW this IS NOT a bash on any previous posters.. IMO D3 has some positives that upon further thinking actually lead to it's largest negatives.

On the surface they appease people short-term, increase marketability as a "cool aspect", meanwhile they are the foundation for the enormous perception of over-exertion of control and micromanagement of the game in general.

majority of ex-blizz, ex-D3 players like to damn the RMAH and curse drop rates while applauding the combat systems...but pay-to-win has ALWAYS been around and they probably couldn't tell me drop rates on other games they've ever played.

What's my point? the combat system wasn't good enough to have us continue to play regardless of rmah/drops. If it were we would still be playing it mindlessly and having fun; but we don't.
ok i posted something! Can i login to the game now??
Last edited by Shaolungbao on Jul 28, 2012, 7:01:44 AM
I played a monk in D3 and while the game-play is more fluid, the skills are not what sets it apart IMO. It is just the level of polish on the play. But what does that smooth game-play get you? Nothing, the basis of an ARPG is a Skinner Box.

Hit Thing
Get Thing
Is thing good?
if yes go to line 5
if no go to line 6
YAY! equip, repeat
MEH...toss it, repeat

Diablo 3 is allllll line 6 and after a few min of "yay playing this feels good" you get bored because there is no actual reason to play. The reward of items is now pretty much locked up in the AH's.

So I say yes to fluidity of D3 but keep the cooldowns in MMORPG's. Improve on PoE's specific (and awesome) skill style please but don't revamp it.
“I look only to the good qualities of men. Not being faultless myself, I won’t presume to probe into the faults of others.” - Gandhi
I dont know the better way to go whith the combat system, but what i know is i don't enjoy d3, is absolutley tedious, make me sleep on my keyboard, and i enjoy to much the actual PoE, i play for hours, in d3 i cant play more than 30 minutes, maybe is the "only pick yellow shit" mechanic, maybe is the slowy combat, so please, dont take that bridge, dont copy D3.
Sorry for my english dudes! D:

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