lightning arrow against new thorns

You can't really offscreen kill yourself with thorns unless you don't pay attention and aggro monsters without killing them, then shooting back at them offscreen, which is silly tactic and being punished for it makes sense.

Reflect punishes crit builds, both melee and ranged. Thorns punish fast attackers, both melee and ranged. Both can be dealt with (reflect damage works offscreen by default, though). It's people using different builds (not always even) complaining now but the comparison fits.

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... Wonder what solutions people are thinking off, if any..

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This tread was never intended as a plea for your help.

What kind of thread was it, I thought you did ask for solution? Not in-game solution, then? Or was it just a shout out that your build is in the group of builds that get hurt by the change?
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wiggin wrote:
You can't really offscreen kill yourself with thorns unless you don't pay attention and aggro monsters without killing them, then shooting back at them offscreen, which is silly tactic and being punished for it makes sense.

Reflect punishes crit builds, both melee and ranged. Thorns punish fast attackers, both melee and ranged. Both can be dealt with (reflect damage works offscreen by default, though). It's people using different builds (not always even) complaining now but the comparison fits.

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... Wonder what solutions people are thinking off, if any..

"
This tread was never intended as a plea for your help.

What kind of thread was it, I thought you did ask for solution? Not in-game solution, then? Or was it just a shout out that your build is in the group of builds that get hurt by the change?


What you are describing is completely unreasonable.

You're saying that as a "responsible, good player" and user of Lightning Arrow, all my arrows should, 100% of the time, either hit monsters I can see and don't have this horrible thorns buff, or hit a wall.

I consider myself a fairly good player of these types of games. I'm not some "pro" like Krip or whatever, but I can keep my dude alive reasonably well and shoot the stuff I intend to shoot without missing.

However, stray shots are going to happen. For instance, I'm spamming down mobs with a group and the mobs die.

Perhaps I don't stop firing at exact right moment. The monsters are dead, and party spell spam traverses over the monsters towards the abyss, proc'ing the thorns and ultimately killing me. Does this make me a bad player, careless?

What is your expectation? Should we pull all the mobs one group at a time into a safe place and then spam them into a corner?

Maybe one player always needs to be "scouting" ahead of entire rooms/areas to make sure the next spot wont instagib people? I have no idea.

Perhaps I should just completely rebuild my character and consider LA no longer viable in any reasonable situation without putting a lot of additional expectations on either my party or the PERFECTION of my play?

But this bizarre expectation that players hit 100% of the time monsters that they see with something like LA is just silly. Nobody, not kripp or whoever, can do that. Your arrows WILL fly off, at some percentage of the time.
Last edited by HopTortoise on Apr 13, 2013, 5:45:52 PM
@HopTortoise
They don't cast the thorns unless they get close enough to you, so those missed arrows that are unavoidable won't land on thorns. Well I didn't think about a tank/scout going ahead and making the thorns to be cast, then getting you killed because you spam LA offscreen.

The rest of your post, idk how to react to that. You quote me but I doubt you read it or you wouldn't start about player skill or some other assumptions about what I supposedly think but never wrote; "responsible good player", bizarre expectation...

I'm not particularly happy about thorns (I wasn't before the ranged change either) but the arguments against it here seem like common whine when your precious build gets a nerf.
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Last edited by wiggin on Apr 13, 2013, 6:14:15 PM
just pay atention and snipe the shielding bitch. tbh if there are guards around you are pretty sure there are thorn mages too, if u are lucky u get summoners. Yeah it's silly but doable, my opinion from a LA ranger who lost a lot of heartbits since yesterday :D
No Fun Allowed
“Seek not greater wealth, but simpler pleasure; not higher fortune, but deeper felicity.”
A little math here.

Let's imagine optimal placement of three mobs, right next to each other, all with lightning thorns, and you're running LA+LMP+Chain.

3 shots from LMP * (1 normal shot + 2 chained) * 4 total people hit by the lightning arrow explosion = 36 hits. Using GMP instead? That's 60 hits instead. And I don't care how much they tuned down lightning thorns; you get hit by that 36 times, you are dead.

...This is kind of bullshit, especially seeing as you can often take a downright embarrassing amount of damage just from aiming at a pack of mobs, having one arrow miss, and letting that richochet offscreen (still up to 12 hits of lightning thorns). Hell, the mechanics of Chain mean that if you're firing at a pack on the edge of the screen, and those thorners are just offscreen, you stand a decent chance of that arrow going off and following those lovely murderous blackguards. You'd better have LGOH, because otherwise, you are just straight-up fucked. I think I'm going to take my 77 bow shadow (he just leveled up) with maxed lightning res and decent HP out to cruel battlefront to see if I can manage to one-shot myself an entire difficulty level lower.
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Last edited by Budget_player_cadet on Apr 13, 2013, 7:51:44 PM
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wiggin wrote:
@HopTortoise
They don't cast the thorns unless they get close enough to you, so those missed arrows that are unavoidable won't land on thorns. Well I didn't think about a tank/scout going ahead and making the thorns to be cast, then getting you killed because you spam LA offscreen.

The rest of your post, idk how to react to that. You quote me but I doubt you read it or you wouldn't start about player skill or some other assumptions about what I supposedly think but never wrote; "responsible good player", bizarre expectation...

I'm not particularly happy about thorns (I wasn't before the ranged change either) but the arguments against it here seem like common whine when your precious build gets a nerf.


Even someone who was all for the new lightning thorns agreed that after testing, the mages DO cast LT on their allies as soon as the pack of enemies is hit, whether you can see them or not.
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Voidtek1969 wrote:
As far as the LT buffing & GGG saying the mages have to be closer to use it, this is incorrect. When they coded the new changes, they made the mages start buffing whenever a mob in their pack within the mages' vicinity got hit with a players' attack.

This means any stray ranged attacks off-screen will prompt "preemptive" buffing offscreen, which means the next volley of attacks on the pack thats actually close to the player will either kill them or near kill them when their next ranged attack goes off-screen.

This was tested & proven multiple times yesterday by several players.


The off-screen stray attacks themselves are preempting buffing whether the players are near the mages or not.

This is a problem since obviously the players cant see the off-screen mages yet.

I don't have a problem with the changes per-se as long as I can see the mages before they buff up. As it stands, they are already buffed up by the time you get to them in many cases.

I see people on here saying, "well use your eyes & if you see a mage, stop using your attack that may kill you". I actually agree, but if you can't see that mage pack off-screen that is already buffed up because of the unintended buffing by proxy to your last attack off-screen, there is absolutely nothing you can do.

The off-screen buffing due to proxy of stray ranged attacks is bugged, and is what is causing most of these problems I surmise.


Bolded the main concession I will make. Tested myself as well and yes this is happening whether or not it was intended. If they fix this issue (if not intended) I will have no sympathy for lack of control.


http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/106770/page/13
i too fas fo youuuuuuu
Last edited by Duskbane on Apr 13, 2013, 7:51:08 PM
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Skvimpan wrote:
I got myself an Lioneye's and was lucky enough to 6-link it yesterday on my lvl 87 hc char. Today i died from a random offscreen LA shot, so now i'm farming docs in default for lvl 66 maps while trying to decide if i should move my hc maps to default or not :p

So yea, i got problems with them aswell. i used GMP to reduce the threat of reflect damage, but instead it seems that contributed to me dying from thorns.


man so sorry to hear that ... its rlly uncool what change they made to thorns
IGN : Sir_Big
i still have not met a full pre-cast pack to be honest. but i just tried it in cruel on a 11.5k hp with 800hp/sec and 80resist and it still hurt like hell. my LA has around 600lightning dmg so i guess it reflects it all back or some shit. really think it should be toned down a bit especially with lmp/la/chain.
Ingame: @_P_
omg GGG did it. I love these guys. :D

Welcome to what melee has been facing all this time. I actually hadn't noticed this in the patch notes, but I did go by Barracks yesterday and was wondering why the mages were *EASIER* now...
Toupy - Lv93 Facebreaker Cyclone Duelist
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Myrthr wrote:
omg GGG did it. I love these guys. :D

Welcome to what melee has been facing all this time. I actually hadn't noticed this in the patch notes, but I did go by Barracks yesterday and was wondering why the mages were *EASIER* now...


AFAIK, melees don't get up to around 40 hits per one shot on a thorned pack... They also have a chance to prepare, as you can't accidentally offscreen something. This is just different.
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