Thoughts on GGG's dishonesty, false advertising, and new stash tabs.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Hi, GGG. I looked at your announcement, and watched the Youtube videos.

(This one: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2882046)

I assume you noticed the percentage of downvotes on them. Your next step is to take a moment and reflect, with a healthy dose of honesty and humility, upon why that might be the case.

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Bex_GGG wrote:

We will, of course, continue with updates to the Currency Tab with slots for new currency items that are released with future expansions.

Before you do that, you need to explain to the community why you don't consider catalysts a form of currency but do consider whetstones and scraps a form of currency. They both improve quality on an item, did you notice?

You also need to explain to the community why you don't consider simulacrum scraps to be fragments when they are so obviously analogous to many other items you do consider fragments.

And this is a harsh question, but I consider it a 100% fair one: Why do we have to point this out to you? I can hardly imagine that these concerns were not among the first things brought up in internal discussions surrounding the design and marketing of these new tabs.

You yourself identify delirium orbs, simulacrum splinters, and simulacrums as "stackable currency" or "map fragments." (I assume you did so because they quite obviously are.)
Source: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2784312

You yourself identify blight maps as, um, maps. (Well, of course. So why do we have to pay again to find them easily?)
You yourself identify oils as "stackable currency."
Source: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2627576

Did you think your players would be too blind to notice, or what?

Why are you utterly ignoring this, as if it were a non-issue? Don't you think that paying customers deserve the minimal courtesy of explaining why they are no longer getting what they paid for? I mean, the fragment tab was already lampooned both for being quite overpriced and for being a separate paid MTX from the map tab, and now you aren't even honoring its ostensible function.

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These new tabs will eventually go on sale with normal stash tab discounts. They won't be featured in the stash tab sale happening this coming weekend

Then don't advertise them as such. You did last time, and it was rude.

Then you continued to do so after it was pointed out to you, and that was incredibly rude, because it was no longer an honest mistake.

Do it a third time and you are practically assassinating your own character.

Edit: And there you go doing EXACTLY the same false advertising I asked you not to. (As if one of your customers should have to go out of his way to beg you not to advertise falsely!) You are simply amazing, GGG. You must think that you are now, as of 2020, beyond reproach and criticism. That your huge budget and Tencent backing excuse you from the basic human need to tell the truth. Thus the word "dishonesty" in the updated thread title.

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The bundle will not be further discounted, and will probably be removed in the future because it only makes sense to users who need exactly these three tabs.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't a (classic) sales tactic to make people "buy this bundle now! Available for a limited time only!" But please be aware that that's how it sounds, even if that was not deliberate.

Also, be aware that the current consensus surrounding these new tabs is that you are becoming more and more cynical and contemptuous of your players as a consequence of Tencent's influence. Please prove us wrong by responding appropriately to the concerns your players are raising.

tl;dr (courtesy of TekZappa):

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TekZappa wrote:

1- I already bought a fragment tab, why can't I put those fragments there?

2- I already bought a currency tab, why can't I put those currencies there?

3 -I already bought a map tab, why can't I put those blight maps there?
[and be able to search for them]

These are legitimate questions, and I would like you to answer them. I know it won't be in this thread, because that's not your style, but you do need to provide answers to all three questions.

The longer you wait to do so, the greater the damage done to your reputation.

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ShadrHasRisen wrote:

Another company fell for chinese money, very sad

+1

re: blight maps. they simply needed a B tab, the way uniques got a U tab. i had to buy a blight stash to save some room and i have nothing nice to say about the other two bloat tabs so i wont say anything.

Come on guys. It's a free to play game. They have to make money somehow.
If they can make the money they need we will have many more years of fun in this game.

Hi, i want free game.
Hi, i want content updates every few months.
Hi, i want constant bug fixes.
Hi, i want constant updates from the creators so i know what is suppose to happen next.
Hi, i want free stash tabs perfectly created for QoL of the player and has nothing to do with supporting a game i come back to constantly over the years and put 100's of hours into.

I don't want to have to pay for any of it . give give give.

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Could you honestly for one moment try to imagine the reality of a situation before you make such a huge fuss.

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Xavathos wrote:

Getting so tired of all this negativity on these boards, man... honestly. Maybe it's time to just stop coming here.

It's humanity in this generation, you see it on Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, any social media, any forum boards, they can all be identified as the same cesspool of toxic waste, it just comes down to how far you have to zoom out to see it.

When will we wake up, stop pointing fingers at others and start looking inward? The world is beautiful, if you're willing to look with eyes open. Wish I could show you, but if it was that easy, we wouldn't be here now.

I might have agreed with you ... if this was not the feedback section and the OP was not actual feedback.

GGG's behaviour is bringing negativity in many ways ?
Well ... would it be better to just let it die eventually, or is there some use to pointing out things that are likely not good for the long term of the game ?


Don't compare this to Facebook / Twitter / Instagram please, this isn't some trolls throwing stones mindlessely, or did you not read the thread ?

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kompaniet wrote:

Come on guys. It's a free to play game. They have to make money somehow.
If they can make the money they need we will have many more years of fun in this game.

Nonsense ( sorry, but it is ).
GGG have been able to start from somewhere because of clear ethical guidelines, which brought them the support of many.

They have started trampling these guidelines, which is loosing them the support of many too.



Anybody thinking that this is about not wanting to support GGG needs to get their head the F. out of the sand for a second or use their brain to realize what this thread is about, seriously.

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Xavathos wrote:

Getting so tired of all this negativity on these boards, man... honestly. Maybe it's time to just stop coming here.

It's humanity in this generation, you see it on Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, any social media, any forum boards, they can all be identified as the same cesspool of toxic waste, it just comes down to how far you have to zoom out to see it.

When will we wake up, stop pointing fingers at others and start looking inward? The world is beautiful, if you're willing to look with eyes open. Wish I could show you, but if it was that easy, we wouldn't be here now.

Do you know what a red herring is? (I direct this question at kompaniet and dierath as well.)

Consumers insisting on honesty and integrity is not, has never been, and never will be comparable to the non-productive negativity people are talking about when they use the word "toxic."

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Fruz wrote:

I might have agreed with you ... if this was not the feedback section and the OP was not actual feedback.

He's one of the white knights, give him a break.

When I started playing the game (back then during Anarchy league), I started with the information that the game was not pay to win, except a very little bit through the stash tabs. I was fine with that (basically, you had the basis that you needed, and if you wanted to hoard a lot of extra stuff, you could still buy extra tabs for that).
I ended up buying some normal tabs, no issue here.

With the addition of content and additional item types, the discussion sometimes came about the number of stash tabs, and I tended to agree that a close eye should be kept by GGG as to what the minimum of tabs needs to be so that they don't become mandatory pay to win items.

Fast forward a little, and GGG introduces the trade API in premium tabs. GGG justified not giving any premium tabs to non-paying players through the fact that third-party programs and trade forums let you sell your stuff through the same channels, and got all the white knights to follow them on that rhetoric.
Most players are reluctant to install third-party programs, though, and only a fraction of the player base comes to the forums. While theoretically, you could go without those tabs, in practice it was pay to win for most of the user base. This is where they lost the "ethical" part of their "ethical free-to-play" strategy (though they still market themselves as "ethical free-to-play").
The worst in that is that they did know that they would get shit for that operation, but instead of giving a free trade tab to everyone, to get out of that issue, they decided to put the functionality on an already existing product. Was it motivated reasoning, or was it dishonesty? Hard to tell, but it sure was a major unethical move.

They then introduced Trade tabs, which was in my opinion, a very interesting, and perfectly ethical addition to their existing products (setting aside the premium part of it issue), as were the map and divination tabs.
But then, they made the essence league, with over 100 slightly different currency items, and shortly after added the essence tab. This is the second major unethical move they made, adding a massive amount of stash clutter just to sell an extra special tab.
Again, it's hard to tell if it was motivated reasoning, or actual dishonesty, but the fact that a lot of modifiers were new and/or specific to the essences did hint towards the intent to make them mandatory. Plus, the justification to add them (making it easier to craft the leveling items that you need) doesn't seem in line with the heavy randomness of the essences looted, making a lot of them clutter your inventory because they only benefit very specific builds, or at least not your current build.

All of this was before Tencent's acquisition in 2018, so it's all on GGG's shoulders, though we could wonder whether they did that in order to make the company more attractive for a potential Tencent acquisition, or if it was a condition for the acquisition.

Now a lot of other leagues have been added that I haven't followed as closely, adding yet extra clutter. I am not surprised to see worries about GGG's ethics, and white knights ready to give GGG a free pass whatever they do. Personally, this issue isn't the reason why I'm not buying anything from them anymore, but if the other reason disappeared, it would certainly reduce the amount of stuff I acquire from them.

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Ydoum wrote:

He's one of the white knights, give him a break.

He usually makes a lot of sense, not here though.

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Angry_Casual wrote:

Most players are reluctant to install third-party programs, though, and only a fraction of the player base comes to the forums. While theoretically, you could go without those tabs, in practice it was pay to win for most of the user base. This is where they lost the "ethical" part of their "ethical free-to-play" strategy (though they still market themselves as "ethical free-to-play").

It does not matter whether or not most users were using the forums or not, publishing listings on the forum would index them with the API, making them viewable on poe.trade

I'm not sure if GGG ever advocated for using third-party programms ( I mean, outside of poe.trade ), I've always seen them say warnings about inputting their login information into anything else than the game client and the official website, as far as I remember.


Back then, it was still fine.

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dierath wrote:

Hi, i want free game.
Hi, i want content updates every few months.
Hi, i want constant bug fixes.
Hi, i want constant updates from the creators so i know what is suppose to happen next.
Hi, i want free stash tabs perfectly created for QoL of the player and has nothing to do with supporting a game i come back to constantly over the years and put 100's of hours into.

I don't want to have to pay for any of it . give give give.

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Could you honestly for one moment try to imagine the reality of a situation before you make such a huge fuss.

Don't u see that most of us complaining here are in this game for years (me 8 years now) and that we have spent several hundreds of $ on it and are still willing to do so?

I was one of the first to suggest to GGG to create a premium-skill-gem-tab, already years ago. I would buy it right away and it could cost $50, I would buy it. (they haven't in all those years) I have bought ALL existing premium tabs (except for the 3 new ones).

But what GGG did here is a blatant lie (please watch the exile-con vid where chris says they would not create such tabs!).

I really struggle to talk calmly to you because it's so terribly stupid what you write and an unfair and false accusation. You should apologize for that utter nonsense.