Elder Map bosses (T16) dropping t1 Maps

+1

It's a lost cause, I simply give up bothering about this.

However, don't expect me to fall again for every new stash tab or to ever buy any support packs.

I can actually agree, I ran 15 sextant-sets of Burial Chambers this league, my overall return from maps seem a LOT lower then before.

Given that before 3.7.0 we didn't have the 'free' ability to vaal out maps without any downside attached this amount should've gone up drastically, in 3.6.0 sustain was absolutely fine and worked.

At the current situation though even with repeatedly running 120+ quantity with sextants + double sacrifice fragments + some auxiliary scarab + more mob prophecies + Harbinger Zana mod I wasn't able to sustain.

Currently I'm sitting at a total of I think... 6 eldered maps since the beginning of the league?
Something definitely is off, I get bad RNG, but this is far beyond that, especially since I am always heavily investing into my maps.

Obviously guardian-maps are removed to increase sustain. At the beginning I ran Zana (which I stacked up specifically to sustain better) to get myself started, this has turned out to not help at all, my sustain was still dwindling despite having a secondary (albeit low quantity) source of possible map drops.

Also switching over to Niko didn't change the situation, after well over 100k sulphite spend I have yet to find a single elder drop in Delve. Well.. a low amount was to be expected, but that's definitely a bit too low.

As a third try I went with Alva since the mobs in the temple can drop maps as well while also unlocking the temple itself grants a whole area of possible map-sustain. Also without any effect.

So, at the moment I'm running T11-15 on simple alch&go instead.

If there is no actual bug in the system... It might be worthwhile to look out for any sort of 'unintended behavior'. Because if this was actively intended... sorry, but then it's fairly dumb to have made such a change.

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Kulze wrote:

in 3.6.0 sustain was absolutely fine and worked.

Ok Heads up here, DO NOT USE 3.6 SYNTHESIS as your MAP DROP BASELINE. That league was artifically inflated due to initially it not being able / worth running the league content that was supposed to give us maps to a they increased that rate after week 1? due to issues with that rate.

The ending point was... 3.6 was WAY easier to get to and sustain higher tier maps then any league has been.


Now that said... My friends in my guild are running and mostly sustaining Elder Burial Chambers (T16) pretty easily with sextant and using the zana daily to get extra map for more map returns. It's not perfect and if map pool runs low they run together which seems to boost the rate to replenish the pool.

So ouch those numbers you have been showing suck. But it's not affecting everyone the same way. Which would be why Rhys is not finding anything weird, as in the code, everything is fine. I have a separate question. Exactly what completion is your atlas bonus at (check the middle) and did you shape the atlas map?

Also are you using your Dailies! That is hugely important as the odds of finding a daily randomly on starting a map was drastically LOWERED, And those odds were instead shuffling that into the master mission pool.

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Rhys wrote:

as well as a buff to Shaped/Eldered maps of higher tiers.

Why would anybody do that ?

Why would anybody use an elder orb of maps that cost significantly more regarding sextants and is already high level to begin with ?

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Rhys wrote:

Overall balance of T16 map sustain etc. is a separate topic.

It's a topic directly related to those uncommunicated changes though.



I fint it honestly very counter intuitive to penalize player who shape map, to penalize players who just simply use a Zana feature.
Like the others, it seems pretty dumb to me.

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ValheruWolf wrote:

It's not perfect and if map pool runs low they run together which seems to boost the rate to replenish the pool.

Party size supposedly has no effect on map drops.

And yes, he is using dailies, there is quite a bit chunk of his post about it ...

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ValheruWolf wrote:

Ok Heads up here, DO NOT USE 3.6 SYNTHESIS as your MAP DROP BASELINE. That league was artifically inflated due to initially it not being able / worth running the league content that was supposed to give us maps to a they increased that rate after week 1? due to issues with that rate.

The ending point was... 3.6 was WAY easier to get to and sustain higher tier maps then any league has been.

That's true, I'm not talking about drops from secondary sources though but purely in-map. I solely need secondary sources this league to even be able to run a low amount of sets, sustain itself is out of reach, something I've never experienced before.

Obviously the biggest disparity to the current situation was 3.5.0 with Betrayal offering the un-nerfed scarabs still, raising map drops through the roof. Hence I can't take this as a benchmark.

For 3.6.0 though you could easily discern which maps actually dropped from the investment done personally versus the drops which happened inside the memory-fragments or Nexus. Those obviously helped more then a 'bit'.

I purely speak from the map-investment directly, and going with that benchmark 3.8.0 SHOULD be better then 3.6.0 as we have free choice of masters to run at any time, hence choosing Alva for high-quantity maps versus Zana for low ones to maximize the return.
Nonetheless the sustain is inferior this league compared to any I've experienced before, the ability to sustain properly is literally non-existant.

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ValheruWolf wrote:

So ouch those numbers you have been showing suck. But it's not affecting everyone the same way. Which would be why Rhys is not finding anything weird, as in the code, everything is fine. I have a separate question. Exactly what completion is your atlas bonus at (check the middle) and did you shape the atlas map?

Also are you using your Dailies! That is hugely important as the odds of finding a daily randomly on starting a map was drastically LOWERED, And those odds were instead shuffling that into the master mission pool.

I'm running eldered maps, hence obviously I don't need to shape much besides the guardians, the return-rate should be highest in this case.

Also as mentioned I'm using masters at EVERY T16 map. I didn't use a single one beforehand to stock up on chain-running them for maximum return and to get a good bolster of maps to have proper choice present.
A choice which I can't make as I'm hoping to even sustain enough maps to finish 3 maps on their own.

At the current situation I'm running - as mentioned - T11-15 since I'm also out of T15 by now, hence I started to use a 'bottoms up' method to create a decent map-pool again, starting to finish all T11 I have at a time and moving up to T15 before repeating that. My goal is to acquire 15 eldered maps in this manner (roughly 250 run maps at the current rate at my guess) to then? Yeah... with the current numbers 6-7 sextant sets before it's depleted again.

The only method not used is elder/shaper ping-pong which would provide another increase in sustain but is a massive bother to manage in the current iteration of that system.

Since this is not an actual bug ( just an aweful design decision ), could we have this thread moved to feedback instead ?

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Rhys wrote:

Just a quick clarification, the old map boss drop system (20% chance to drop any map) was actually removed in 3.2.0 (Bestiary). The new 33% chance to drop an adjacent map was added in 3.7.0 (Legion).

The original post of this thread was regarding an Elder map boss dropping T1 maps, despite an Atlas bonus of over 100%. This is intended, if the T1 map is adjacent, because the Atlas bonus does not apply to adjacent map drops. So this is not a bug.

That's quite a while back already ... (I barely played in Bestiary)


So, in short, the potential +2 tier maps being able to drop from map bosses have just been a joke since bestiary ? ( adjacent maps aren't +2 tiers obviously, and the probability to have another map drop from the boss is quite low. )

I mean ... it does happen once in a while, after having sacrificed a virgin during a full moon in a very particular way I guess, but ... come on :(.


Anyway, thank you for the details, I wish it was mentioned in the patchnotes somewhere, but better late than never, it's good that we know now.
I guess I'll add a thread in feedback regarding those new adjacent map drops and shaped maps.

as long ago as that? interesting.

i appreciate you taking the time to make the comments youve made in this thread rhys and i apologise if ive been my often abrasive self with some of my wording, im just a bit of an arsehole sometimes and im sure everyone whos been posting along side me here for the last 6 years can confirm that diagnosis.


i would ask that you guys consider this adjacent map policy when it comes to shaped maps tho. giving them the same chance of a +1/-1 shaped map instead would stop the situation where using a shaper orb is a bad idea, which is currently the situation.


it may seem minor on paper, but for example since i came back at the start of this league ive been running old chars in standard. Ive levelled one char from 96-97 and another from 97 to 98 to 99... at this point i can look at my xp bar, it says 16%, i run 3 maps look again its at 17%. Youre running 300 maps to get to a level, when ur talking this volume of play ur getting, or losing, 100x +1/-1 maps. thats super significant, as players we cant look at that and not feel awful about using shaper/elder orbs now, its a huge deal.


im not making a judgement on the balance of sustaining or not sustaining maps at X level given X investment, thats a separate issue, i just want to be able to use shaper and elder orbs without feeling like an idiot whos drilling holes in the bottom of their own boat.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

i just want to be able to use shaper and elder orbs without feeling like an idiot whos drilling holes in the bottom of their own boat.

That is the issue here, we have a system accessible through a reward system ( completing map objectives ) but the Atlas system only gives an incentive not to use it.

It's counter-intuitive and confusing.
It's like when you know that running the next incursion will lower your chance of getting the previous incursion's room to level 3 (assuming it's in the same map), only in the case of Alva it is because of technical issues, it isn't a game design problem.