Evasion progress

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LadyDevimon wrote:

The passive grid is designed for survival. Do you all troll me or what is this about 0o.

wait a sec, here.
Early lvl20 meleeranger

This is broken? This is no survival?

I would characterize that build as the 500 hp melee ranger getting jumped by a goat:

It is not survival! But it looks like survival.

Facts are that the +22%hp does almost nothing when you do not have any +life on items. +block with shield is doing nothing to increase hit-surviveability, it is just another evasion-roll, the rng we hate so much when we play in hardcore. The thing making rangers too much of a boolean.

Edited for clarity and correct number

And a like +40%hp changes anything?
This is just comparing two numbers, +18% and +40%. 18% is unplayable and with 40% you are immortal.

Also a melee doesn't mean you can't die by anything. This would be ridiculous if just by some defense, you can't die anymore or you don't have to fear something or there isn't anything that can hurt you.(besides pain).

Min/max problem, not evasion problem.

So if we would change the 18% to 40%, you would say "Now its fine"?
What if we just remove evasion, recolor the area red and name all like the strength area? Thats better?

Overall, and that what counts, 75% armor is equal to 75% evasion.
Buff evasion and you will see all melee running into the green zone to get some shiny nodes.

Does it really hurt that much that for HC, where you do all to avoid to die can't rely on an obvious rng mechanic?

Thats the price for diversity and we have to pay for it.
Or go around and achieve something thats not just given by default. No i don't look to other games while saying this.

I was going to write a nice translation of LadyDevimon's last trollery post, in case she is legitimately incapable of writing a coherent one. Then I couldn't figure out what the hell she was trying to say in the first paragraph.

So instead, I'm going to respond to the only comprehensible parts of the post I can find. As well, I'm going to stick to arguments that other people in the thread are actually participating in.

*You'll notice that about half of her post is not repeated here. That is intentional.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

Overall, and that what counts, 75% damage reduction is equal to 75% evasion.

False! Not only because damage reduction and evasion scale off of opponents differently (damage per attack and accuracy, respectively) but also because of the time-to-react granted by each of these. Armor allows you to anticipate and gauge how a fight is going. Evasion makes you hope you can twitch-reflex to use a Bubbling flask before someone gets another lucky hit in.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

Buff evasion and you will see all melee running into the green zone to get some shiny nodes.

Doubtful! It would require your typical melee class (Marauder, Templar maybe) to cross a significant portion of the passive tree, which hurts their build in other fields quite significantly. As for Duelists / 6th class, those two are actively encouraged to use parts of the dexterity tree, so I can't see a problem there.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

Is it really that bad that in hardcore, where you do all you can to avoid dying can't rely on an obvious random number-based mechanic?

Yes actually! As you alluded, hardcore has a very significant Do Not Die dynamic in it. What do you call a defense mechanic that can allow you to die with no opportunity to react, even though you invested heavily in it? A shitty defense mechanic.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

Or go and achieve something thats not just given by default.

In a way, that's what people are trying to do in this thread, by suggesting changes to the evasion mechanic, rather than keeping it at 'the default'.

Quite simply evasion by itself is garbage and you will die eventually when the random number generater catches you....

More to the point though... I have yet to see a single build that does not take some str for the life... even if by some chance you avoid every str node you are still going to get str from gear... Stat requirements are so low that with just a good belt and\or all stats amulet you can where the heaviest armors in the game... now you got 60-70% armor just like a marauder and all your dex nodes are still going to net you 30-40% evasion. All this without putting a single point in plus evasion or armor...

I have witches with this concept, rangers with this concept, marauder with this concept and the simple fact is if you keep your gear remotely close to your lvl and descent resists you are for all intents and purpose unkillable....

I disreguard chaos because that is not even part of the real game to come so playing thru that is just for e-peen.

What all that really means is reguardless of your class disreguard evasion. You will still get some by default and if you do great but it is really just bonus survival chance. If at all possible use a shield for extra convienance. 25-30% block to go with all the above and that is without ever spending a single put defensively.

All of that is why 2handers, bows, and dual weilding is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to not dieing. Sure you can argue killing slightly faster means fewer hits but with the above phylosophy you are at zero risk of dieing and can kill at your leisure with whatever you want. Remember you are given all these tools to beat the game so do not refuse to use all the tools at your disposal and then whine I suck compared to person B who is useing everything he has available.

Just my 2cents though.

Nice try my dear troll Softspoken!

You dont understand any of my points AND you quote something and reply to it with a different meaning.

Are you serious?
No because you are just the troll here!

What your folks want here is an easier game. You don't cry about bad evasion, you cry about the difficulty and that there is sommething that maybe kill you.

There are possibilities to have mods on enemys that really hurt. The game need it to be scary, dangerous and A CHALLANGE!

Its your own fault to trust on a PURE evasion build. No other builds do pure things. But your pure whatever is so broken.

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LadyDevimon wrote:
Overall, and that what counts, 75% damage reduction is equal to 75% evasion.

False! Not only because damage reduction and evasion scale off of opponents differently (damage per attack and accuracy, respectively) but also because of the time-to-react granted by each of these. Armor allows you to anticipate and gauge how a fight is going. Evasion makes you hope you can twitch-reflex to use a Bubbling flask before someone gets another lucky hit in.

Wrong. A 75% reduction by armor is equal to 75% chance to evade a given dps. The sacaling has nothing to do with that because if you increase given dmg, its not any more 75% reduction vs 75% evasion. But you dont understand it, you just take some of my statements and change its meaning. Troll.

Its not my fault that you have a lack of reasoning.


Edit:

"

I was going to write a nice translation of LadyDevimon's last trollery post, in case she is legitimately incapable of writing a coherent one. Then I couldn't figure out what the hell she was trying to say in the first paragraph.

So instead, I'm going to respond to the only comprehensible parts of the post I can find. As well, I'm going to stick to arguments that other people in the thread are actually participating in.

Who cares? Seriously, why do you write such nonsense?

Huh, so I guess you can get lucid. In any case.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

What your folks want here is an easier game. You don't cry about bad evasion, you cry about the difficulty and that there is sommething that maybe kill you.

There are possibilities to have mods on enemys that really hurt. The game need it to be scary, dangerous and A CHALLANGE!

Its your own fault to trust on a PURE evasion build. No other builds do pure things. But your pure whatever is so broken.

I don't want an easier game for the sake of an easier game. I want a game that allows meaningful defensive choices for all attributes. This is mostly inspired by the way that both Strength and Intelligence have very powerful choices in Armor and Energy Shield, but Dexterity's Evasion can leave a player out in the cold with little to no warning.

I get that if you don't build defensively, you deserve to die when you inevitably get caught. I get that things in the game need to be able to kill a character. But I don't agree with what evasion allows: a completely unanticipated death, with no chance to react. Piles of energy shield will let you see a dent in your health first, piles of armor will let you watch your life bar slip away slowly, evasion lets you play thinking everything is fine until suddenly you are dead.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

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Softspoken wrote:

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LadyDevimon wrote:
Overall, and that what counts, 75% damage reduction is equal to 75% evasion.

False! Not only because damage reduction and evasion scale off of opponents differently (damage per attack and accuracy, respectively) but also because of the time-to-react granted by each of these. Armor allows you to anticipate and gauge how a fight is going. Evasion makes you hope you can twitch-reflex to use a Bubbling flask before someone gets another lucky hit in.

Wrong. A 75% reduction by armor is equal to 75% chance to evade a given dps. The sacaling has nothing to do with that because if you increase given dmg, its not any more 75% reduction vs 75% evasion. But you dont understand it, you just take some of my statements and change its meaning.

Its not my fault that you have a lack of reasoning.

What I said up there was that the damage reduction % from armor is calculated based on the damage done by an opponent, whereas the effectiveness of Evasion is calculated off of the accuracy of an opponent. This is still true, and an essential difference between the two mechanics.
What I also alluded to at the end was that armor tends to make a character's health bar fall slowly, in many smaller steps, while evasion makes it either not move at all or drop in large chunks. The problem isn't that armor lets a player react and use flasks: the problem is that evasion sees a player do fine for a few hits then suddenly drop to 20% after evasion fails once. And if it fails them again, you can have a very sudden death indeed.
The imbalance is that moderate amounts of armor allow the player to react, while extreme amounts of evasion still leave a player gambling with their life.

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LadyDevimon wrote:

Edit:

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Softspoken wrote:

I was going to write a nice translation of LadyDevimon's last trollery post, in case she is legitimately incapable of writing a coherent one. Then I couldn't figure out what the hell she was trying to say in the first paragraph.

So instead, I'm going to respond to the only comprehensible parts of the post I can find. As well, I'm going to stick to arguments that other people in the thread are actually participating in.

Who cares? Seriously, why do you write such nonsense?

I write both for my sanity and to entertain. Are you not entertained?

Moderator edit:

Please refrain from personal attacks. If you don't have anything on-topic to say, don't post.