Bait-and-switch scams are very easy to minimise, so why haven't you done this already, GGG?

"
ciel289 wrote:
i still dont understand how ppl get scamed like that....
if the seller changes the item the whole trade screen gets red and you cant trade for a very short time,how can you not notice that?
the game forces you to hover over any item you trade and blocks trade if an item is changed after you hovered over it...
either they dont check it right from the start,which means all things like "add a [6l]" etc to the item wont change anything

stuff like timeless jewels or good/bad rolls are harder to see,but normaly you are aware of that when you looked for a specific timeless jewel or an item with extrem good rolls

are you? you're crossing the same path like the people getting scammed..

the timeless jewels are easily by far the second thing to scam others I have 10 of those rotting on my stash because selling them is a clusterfuck for like pennies...

thousands of ways that you would get scammed if you ask for "screenshots"..

easy for me at the end of the day, I don't trust any single one of the players in the game.. this league has personally proven to me that nobody is to be trusted.
Turning players into payers. Anti NPC-Echo chamber.

“I don't bow, curtsy, or give a shit.” - Kabal.

Blight is over. Modern tower defense games arent my cup of tea regardless.
"
Xystre wrote:
"
ciel289 wrote:
i still dont understand how ppl get scamed like that....
if the seller changes the item the whole trade screen gets red and you cant trade for a very short time,how can you not notice that?
the game forces you to hover over any item you trade and blocks trade if an item is changed after you hovered over it...
either they dont check it right from the start,which means all things like "add a [6l]" etc to the item wont change anything

stuff like timeless jewels or good/bad rolls are harder to see,but normaly you are aware of that when you looked for a specific timeless jewel or an item with extrem good rolls

are you? you're crossing the same path like the people getting scammed..

the timeless jewels are easily by far the second thing to scam others I have 10 of those rotting on my stash because selling them is a clusterfuck for like pennies...

thousands of ways that you would get scammed if you ask for "screenshots"..

easy for me at the end of the day, I don't trust any single one of the players in the game.. this league has personally proven to me that nobody is to be trusted.


thats why i mentioned it...
when you want to buy very good rolled items and/or timeless jewels,you will start with searching for the item right?

for that you have to adjust the search parameters for it (like i want a starforge with 95+ hp,480+% phy dmg and atleast 7% attackspeed)
the moment you set these parameters you are aware of the fact that you look for something "very" specific,you know that a item looking the same can be much worse.
this awareness doesnt or rather shouldnt stop after finding the item,period

the moment the trade doesnt happen on the first try (like changing item) clearly means something was wrong. whatever went wrong (could even be a simple missclick) it should always makes you double check things to finde the problem why the trade didnt happen

you should atleast exspect ppl to look at the screen when they trade
Oh well, the first page had some good responses, then the usual barflies came in and ignored my very polite request not to make this about victim blaming or claiming this won't fix anything.

Again: if you think such a change would somehow make your experience worse, I'd love to hear why. If not, then I see no reason for you to oppose a measure that would help reduce these incidences, even if you don't think it's necessary.

So far no one's really refuted the logic of choosing to make a minor crime more difficult rather than going after the minor criminals assuming the minor crime is an easy one to perpetrate with potentially devastating results, which it clearly is right now.

This argument of 'the game forces you to hover over the item' meaning 'no one should ever be scammed this way' falls under 'I don't make mistakes', which makes victim blaming very easy. But people make mistakes. All the time. And in this case, I believe it's an easy one to do. Again, were it not, if this bait and switch didn't work, people wouldn't constantly try it.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself now. I do have to wonder why they haven't done something like this. In every other instance, a far more valuable item looks different to a weaker one -- when a 6L or a higher value unique drops, for example, pretty much every item filter (including the ones now built into PoE) will make sure you know it's not just a 6S or a common unique. The devs clearly understand that this is a fast-moving game and even in trade, people will make hasty errors. They might get too excited for the item they've lawfully traded for -- and you want to blame the victim for that? Have you never gotten excited over something and maybe done it a little too quickly?

I'll await a reasonable argument against TencentGGG making 6L visibly different to 6S, or Voidforge and Starforge being at-a-glance different, with the express purpose of reducing low-effort bait-and-switch theft (and yes, kids, it's THEFT). So far I see none.
You're not Exiles. You're clowns! Toa thonna mondarr! Nocklith! Vohkbar! YOU'RE ALL CLOWNS! CLOWNS! CLOWNS!

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Last edited by 鬼殺し on Jul 11, 2019, 8:16:18 AM
"
Oh well, the first page had some good responses, then the usual barflies came in and ignored my very polite request not to make this about victim blaming or claiming this won't fix anything.

Again: if you think such a change would somehow make your experience worse, I'd love to hear why. If not, then I see no reason for you to oppose a measure that would help reduce these incidences, even if you don't think it's necessary.

So far no one's really refuted the logic of choosing to make a minor crime more difficult rather than going after the minor criminals assuming the minor crime is an easy one to perpetrate with potentially devastating results, which it clearly is right now.

This argument of 'the game forces you to hover over the item' meaning 'no one should ever be scammed this way' falls under 'I don't make mistakes', which makes victim blaming very easy. But people make mistakes. All the time. And in this case, I believe it's an easy one to do. Again, were it not, if this bait and switch didn't work, people wouldn't constantly try it.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself now. I do have to wonder why they haven't done something like this. In every other instance, a far more valuable item looks different to a weaker one -- when a 6L or a higher value unique drops, for example, pretty much every item filter (including the ones now built into PoE) will make sure you know it's not just a 6S or a common unique. The devs clearly understand that this is a fast-moving game and even in trade, people will make hasty errors. They might get too excited for the item they've lawfully traded for -- and you want to blame the victim for that? Have you never gotten excited over something and maybe done it a little too quickly?

I'll await a reasonable argument against TencentGGG making 6L visibly different to 6S, or Voidforge and Starforge being at-a-glance different, with the express purpose of reducing low-effort bait-and-switch theft (and yes, kids, it's THEFT). So far I see none.


i´m not against changes that could help players that got scamed as long as they dont add another layer of confirmation
i.e. like a 2nd pop up after the frist one "are you really really sure you want to delete this file"
i simply doubt it would change anything

imo the current system does its job and i dont need more
so as long as it doesnt have a negative impact on me (like a really anoying 2nd confirmation) i really dont care

that basicly means,its fine for them to change or add stuff but they should be "carefull" not to overdo it
if people complain about having to read descriptions or recognising sockets when making a purchase per week for multiple exalts, the game is pretty ok and there is no need for improvements.

---

imho, problems this game has is huuuge monsters having h7uuge weapons making huuge telegraphed attacks and then you take no damage.

another problem is, you can't see monsters if items dropped cause item labels are displayed on top of monsters.

and the worst problem they never tackled is the loot system, clicking on item labels makes your char run around, attracting monsters or even not running anywhere. they would rather shit so many items onto players so they give up picking them up rather than adapting the label coordinate system respective to the player position.


people don't read when spending exalts once a month. pha! i thought only streamers have this problem
abandon the forumses! devs already left!
Such a thing can be very easily implemented.

Add a tutorial after a certain level, same as everything else.

Enable the toggle the first time you click to trade with someone, then afterwards if it is too "overwhelming" or whatever you can always disable it and trade the old way.

I don't see any instance where more information/visibility during trades could cause actual harm.
"

Again: if you think such a change would somehow make your experience worse, I'd love to hear why. If not, then I see no reason for you to oppose a measure that would help reduce these incidences, even if you don't think it's necessary.


I don't particularly like to be treated like a eighth year old by developers of a "hardcore arpg experience".

I also think your making an assumption that this will reduce or solve scamming. You assume the current signaling method is poorly implemented.

But given the amount of scam post's and reports in relation to the amount of total trades done daily on the PoE market, i think the signaling is very efficient.(both in blowback and success)

Then there is the difference in attitude, for example getting scammed and moving on vs making a thread and blowing it up. Some people are just playing a game and getting scammed is just "a bad day in the game" not "a bad day" in general.

Let's disregard the whole "this is theft" bullshit, because i don't have the patience or willingness to waste time on that tripe remark.

Also assuming your idea is perfect and by extension labbeling all opposing views is bound to give you substantial critique, i am sure.

The easiest counter argument to your suggestion would be "don't fix what aint broke".
Which presumably is why GGG is content with the current system.

One could argue, things are going pretty good that scamming is the thing people are complaining about.(we already checked of the "melee fix did nothing", "only one meta skill" and "release and kill mobs for loot good" themes)

Peace,

-Boem-

It is not easy to realize the monster in yourself, truly it is not easy to create purposefully.
It is easy to realize the virtue in yourself, truly it is easy to destroy.
Contemplate which is worth your time.
-Peace-
"
In every other instance, a far more valuable item looks different to a weaker one

In the case of voidfogre / starforge, it's arguably just how shit the balance is that makes the values of those items to be what they are right now.
And given how crappy the balance can get sometimes (or how much the balance team does not give a damn about actually balance in many cases), this could just very well shift in a single major release, don't you think ?

About 6L and 4L+2L or 3L+3L, then yeah ... that can be improved, clearly, I agree.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
Most of the people disagreeing with your idea Charan are scammers themselves or they peacocks believing everything is rainbows and sunshine. Heck, there were times when I was questioning my own 6L especially on some armors that were extremely dark with the same color socket.

In terms of voidforges, it is a different name, therefore that is on the buyer if it gets scammed, but the links are sometimes so whack, it is not even funny. I don't see why the name of the item could not have as someone suggested [number of links] on the side considering it would be a small change and it would be a big qol.

In this way, when you buy 6L you don't have to squint your eyes but just verify the right side to see if it is indeed a 6L or not.
I agree with OP that some simple solutions like updating far too similar art should be done, I've played this game a long time and i've never truly been scammed in this way but i was lucky enough to catch people the few times they tried.

A new player is not going to know about these things and yeah maybe it takes getting scammed or an attempt being made for them to learn but that doesn't mean some QOL changes to help reduce the easy scams wouldn't benefit the game a great deal or that they should not be done.

I would imagine a lot of newer users who do get lucky enough to make a few EX and go after an expensive item if they get scammed many would outright quit the game and go play another game like Warframe or any Subscription based MMO.

They are not likely to return and are extremely likely to tell their friends that this is a bad game, I don't think anyone who loves this game wants that to happen.

Anyone who would argue against this i think does not care about this game or its success, We need new players to keep this game alive, I spend a lot of time trying to educate new players on the tools they need to survive including avoiding scammers and those who prey upon them in various ways.

It would be nice to have a little less to have to protect them against, And instead spend that valuable time on helping them understand the game better.

Last league i encountered a new player who was lucky enough to get a shaped opal ring and at the time it was worth 24ex, he asked in global chat what it was worth and most of the users there completely trolled him and pm'd him trying to get that ring for some amount of chaos up to an exalt.

Thankfuly i got to him in time to educate him on what his item was worth and he went on to sell that ring and have a lot of fun with this game, I'm not sure where he is now or what he's doing but im ceartain that if people were allowed to take advantage of him we would have lost a player for nothing.

I know that the shaped ring is kind of off-topic here but my point is that scamming and other acts of evil are very common in this game and ANYTHING even if its small to help prevent this would be greatly appreciated both by me and thousands of players of POE.

Last edited by SilentSymphony on Jul 11, 2019, 12:54:00 PM

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