They're people who think maps droping too much is a bad thing.

yeah, ur monster power creep is baked in, so u dont ever need to release a patch where u say "monsters are buffed". You just buff players and they automatically move up the gradient and face buffed monsters of their own free will.


The thing with this risk/time killing rares... I was running around in red tier maps with a lvl16 bane gem and i was 1 clicking rares, they were dying in literally 1 second. I tried it with disfavour cyclone and they died instantly when i touched them. It was the same risk and time as killing a white mob, they just instantly died with 0 risk of anything to my characters.

these are characters that people on the forums would generally class as low damage builds who stack too much defense. Why do you have 14k es + 20k evasion with half the dps mathil has? I feel like that would be the general response if i posted a build guide. Basically every build guide i see on the forums has more damage than im speccing.

Cost for guardian maps seems to be around usual or very slightly less, not 5c.

Yup, I'm the one thinking map drop is a bit higher than needed.
I've had around 35 T1 maps before starting to do maps.
I've only invested around 3-5 chisels in maps (+20% quality prophecy).
Never used alchs or anything else on maps.
Now I have around 25 T1 maps, 30 T2 maps and 10 T3 maps.

Why I'm thinking so? Cuz I'm able to progress without investment.

I believe the best balancing would be like if a player haven't invested anything in maps (not a signle chisel) he shouldn't be getting any benefits.
Like running 100 T1 maps with 0% quality should net not more than the same 100 maps. No investment = no reward. But if I invest a chisel in each of these maps then after 100 maps I might get 105 maps while some of these extra 5 might be a higher tier.

Currently it's fun to play as I don't really need to care about maps at my level, but balancing it around "no investment - no reward" level could be more logical.

"

mkdnpna wrote:

Yup, I'm the one thinking map drop is a bit higher than needed.
I've had around 35 T1 maps before starting to do maps.
I've only invested around 3-5 chisels in maps (+20% quality prophecy).
Never used alchs or anything else on maps.
Now I have around 25 T1 maps, 30 T2 maps and 10 T3 maps.

Why I'm thinking so? Cuz I'm able to progress without investment.

I believe the best balancing would be like if a player haven't invested anything in maps (not a signle chisel) he shouldn't be getting any benefits.
Like running 100 T1 maps with 0% quality should net not more than the same 100 maps. No investment = no reward. But if I invest a chisel in each of these maps then after 100 maps I might get 105 maps while some of these extra 5 might be a higher tier.

Currently it's fun to play as I don't really need to care about maps at my level, but balancing it around "no investment - no reward" level could be more logical.

Oh no 3 people think the drop is too high!

Drop seems fairly similar to me, I'm at something like 110 but it feels roughly like what "normal" luck feels like, now some of that is bias because I find my regular map drops are pretty poor (it isn't really bias, they are awful) but this league its been good until about the T13 ish range where i've stopped making progress for now.

As to the mob difficulty Snorkle the problem is they are buffing after the fact rather than premeditating it, this patch's buff to rares is like the first real buff to rares for a long long time and we already one shot everything the last time. I also personally feel like the buff to rares health makes the game feel worse, the pacing is bad.

They'd have needed a significant buff to overcome how steep power creeps gotten recently, like 300%. I barely even bother with gear anymore, last league I played divine ire and it was trivial to clear the game with my starting map gear, this time is the same thing but with cyclone only actual purchase i've made is a beefier health chestpiece.

Can I do Uber elder with my pleb tier gear? Probably, I can certainly do shaper but i might need to tweak some things for Uber.

"

mkdnpna wrote:

Why I'm thinking so? Cuz I'm able to progress without investment.

But you progress more quickly with investment. That's the payoff.

That's the nature of ARPGs, really. It's not a binary win/lose kind of genre - everybody's winning, some people are just winning faster or slower than others.

"

mkdnpna wrote:

Yup, I'm the one thinking map drop is a bit higher than needed.
I've had around 35 T1 maps before starting to do maps.
I've only invested around 3-5 chisels in maps (+20% quality prophecy).
Never used alchs or anything else on maps.
Now I have around 25 T1 maps, 30 T2 maps and 10 T3 maps.

Why I'm thinking so? Cuz I'm able to progress without investment.

I believe the best balancing would be like if a player haven't invested anything in maps (not a signle chisel) he shouldn't be getting any benefits.
Like running 100 T1 maps with 0% quality should net not more than the same 100 maps. No investment = no reward. But if I invest a chisel in each of these maps then after 100 maps I might get 105 maps while some of these extra 5 might be a higher tier.

Currently it's fun to play as I don't really need to care about maps at my level, but balancing it around "no investment - no reward" level could be more logical.

No "investment" total reward is what literally every other game does. The investment goes into your character being able to do content not the content itself.

Well, the 100% more health buff to rares certainly is noticeable if you DON'T PLAY CRIT, and even more so IF RT.

The magic packs still seem a tad under the optimal health, but only by a smaller amount now.

The normal monsters needed a 150% health buff too.

The damage dealt by monsters still feels like a cardiac arrest. Normal attacks are too "puny" to even be considered, though if you get hit by >100 in <1 sec they do get your attention, and the critical spikes are like 9 - 10th Richter degree earthquakes that tend to kill you in that <1 sec "just because ... => meme balance is a FEATURE in PoE" (looking at all the T16 possessed red beasts/corrupted essence monsters/Betrayal encounters on asininely rolled maps that tend to have both epic health and damage levels)...

So more of the same old, anything meta ROFL STOMPS EVERYTHING, meanwhile the "worst" playstyle got severely downgraded regarding attack speed for a questionable focus on slower gameplay (that is a good idea, but to implement it without addressing the offscreen capabilities of the other playstyles reminds me of the "PoE = meme balance" conundrum).

Dual wielding RT melee as in Smite feels slower, because IT ACTUALLY IS SLOWER, and Static Strike still does abysmal single target damage, yet due to the new damage + action speed effectiveness baked into melee skills, they feel at most as before, which equals ROFL STOMP level until you hit those Betrayal/corrupted multi-essence/red beasts on those high tier dangerous modded maps...

The gradual increase in difficulty is so sublime, so efficient, so relevant, that IT'S ENTIRELY MISSING...

@Snorkle_uk is spot on that the best attitude TencentGGG should have, would be to PROPERLY ADJUST both Atlas AND Delving to grant PROPER EXP + LOOT INCENTIVE when you actually DO RUN DIFFICULT CONTENT (and liberate Delve from the goddamn sulphite cap which should be set to 1 BILLION at least, if we're still talking about a goddamn cap)...

But it will take until at least 4.0, when TencentGGG might "grow some", and admit that they "saw the light" and properly address all these "life long" (as in since official 1.0 PoE release as a "completed" product) problematic aspects.

For now, the melee rework is still in the "Limbo", as they succeeded in only not providing us a REAL INCENTIVE to pick melee, dash through the whole game and feel "complete satisfaction" when we get to the end of the journey...
It's an improvement, but more of a sidegrade, as those players that managed to kill Shaper or Uber Elder/Atziri will still manage to do so, and the casual n00bs will still fail to enjoy red tier maps/depth >200 delves...

Too much potential wasted without the proper impact...

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

I agree with most of what u say obviously, because its mostly common sense.

"

grepman wrote:

I believe there is NOTHING fundamentally wrong with running easier content to build up your bankroll. I used poker as a great analogy, where its a skill game yet it is gated by RNG and your bankroll (maps). You fundamentally disagree with that concept. Why - just because. OK.

i dont necessarily disagree with the concept in a theoretical sense, but I do completely disagree with the current implementation of it, because it doesnt lead to the game being as fun or as challenging as it could be, it keeps it pretty far off it, and it destroys a lot of other systems like the item and build system. What I mean by that is theres no need to really have a great build or great gear in poe, average build with fairly shit gear just stomps the entire map system. Its undermining the other aspects of the game, and for me the item system and the build system are more important than the map system, if I had to pick 2 and the expense of the 3rd Id lose the map system.

Were at a point where melee is considered shit, and look at what reave can do. Thats shit? Is that where we are at? A shit build can speed clear the highest maps in the game without stopping for air. I feel like I could make any old build, just roughly grab some life and damage nodes, use whatever gear drops for me and clear out the map system.

you kinda moved the goalposts here.

you know I agree about trash in maps being laughable 'difficulty'.

you disagree with entire concept of tokenization or 'moving up tiers', and I think you disagree in general, not just 'current implementation'.

this is clear to me since your view of delve is essentially the same.

again, it all comes down to 'is it ok to play lower less challenging content in order to get a token into a higher content'. the answer to me is a clear yes. the answer for you is really a 'no'. how much less difficult is details

"

"

grepman wrote:

what you really want is infinite scaling that is only gated by difficulty and nothing else. I dont think this is easily achievable in an arpg endgame that has balance issues and wide gaps between builds. maybe not achievable at all. gating content behind rng and resource accumulation allows for a dangling carrot though.

the problem in poe is progression in endgame is fucked big time. it is there during story. then its like a wild wild west once you beat kitava.

D3 managed it. They have a problem in that theyre great devs and they have managed to make good gameplay and difficulty scaling that enables that gameplay because theyre good game devs. But theyre shit arpg devs, they dont have a clue, so the core of what needs to be good in a game is there but its sitting at the heart of a shit arpg, the item system, build system, variety of endgame activities... so much of that game is absolute toilet.

first, my pet peeve. I paid 60 dollars for D3 and IT DOESNT HAVE RIFTS

ROS != D3

just like

LOD != D2

I always assumed people called LOD D2 simply because they were embryos when D2 vanilla was actually released, but there is no such excuse with D3

second, I said in 'arpg'. D3 is basically an arcade game. all builds are controlled via sets. there is no gaps in builds power like in PoE because D3 is a simple ass game. also, since they shower you in gear, there is no time investment needed anymore in D3. it literally has no problems like PoE because there are no real problems in your progression. you can get fucked in PoE because of RNG. D3 makes sure you dont get fucked. big difference.

"

I honestly think an endless scaling dungeon along side an infinite non scaling ledge... 2 relatively easy things to put together, if u put them in the game ungated I would spend maybe 80%+ of my time in them rather than maps. I would actually play this game rather than coming around for 1 week and then leaving because the endgame systems are such utter garbage.

Something as simple as make blood aqueduct, when u go through the door at the end ur in another blood aqueduct, make the zone level 79. I would take that over the entire mapping system. Theres a question, would I get bored? Ya sure, but Id stick around long enough to get bored of it which would end up being about 10x as many hours as I stick around for the map system.

yet another thing we disagree on.
endless linear areas are fucking retarded and boring af in my opinion.

"

What does shaped strand meta tell us about what players want when we look at a simple endless ledge vs a huge complex map system? It says the map system is a waste of time imo, its a gigantic ego penis stroking act of bullshit from devs who dont even want to play it themselves, they just wanted to design it.

bad assumption and worse conclusion imo. a lot of people do whats efficient even if theyre sick of it. linear maps are most efficient in that you dont have to pay any attention to shit and thus get you most currency

I would personally would rejoice if they removed every single linear map from the game. Every. Single. Linear. Map.

also, Snorkle, I also find it ironic that you talk about difficulty, then use the 'easiest' to navigate map layouts that are railroads and can be done blind.

fuck linear maps. also fuck icons on minimap. in fact, fuck the minimap.

all the 'qol' things make the game easier to play for people who dont want to pay attention and just follow objectives on screen.