Winter Orb nerf.... is a buff? Wut?

Winter Orb projectile frequency always scaled with cast speed. It just wasn't noted on the gem.

So it's nerfed.

If you don't believe go see all those soul eater Winter Orb builds that shoot out 100 projectiles a second.

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Miská wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

And saying you don't want to channel with a channeling skill isn't?

You missed the point like usual.

The point here wasn't missed, it was ignored. There's a very important difference and reason for that, which my question made perfectly clear, even more so by you dodging it.

As usual? If you're going to point something out like that, I wonder if you point me in the direction of where I missed a point previously?

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Xavathos wrote:

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Miská wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

And saying you don't want to channel with a channeling skill isn't?

You missed the point like usual.

The point here wasn't missed, it was ignored. There's a very important difference and reason for that, which my question made perfectly clear, even more so by you dodging it.

As usual? If you're going to point something out like that, I wonder if you point me in the direction of where I missed a point previously?

If first you didn't have to channel it and now you do. That's called a difference. No matter how much you 'ignore' it. In the future if you want to ignore someones point, maybe it's best to refrain from quoting that person to begin with. Thanks.

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LowBudget780 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

The 'real' big nerf for WOrb is the elementalist's beacon of ruin nerf if anything, imho.


That's probably going to actually have a negative ( positive for the game though ) impact on its clearspeed.

For clear you probably won't even notice it, you can still shock with 1 lightning so Inpulsas and prolif gem if you want. Stuff dies so fast with worb anyways, the skill is just fundamentally broken.

Damn it, Impulsa trumps it lol.

Well, Impulsa becomes much more "mandatory" for godly clearspeed now, you can't just HoI and everything is just gone.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Winter Orb projectile frequency always scaled with cast speed. It just wasn't noted on the gem.

So it's nerfed.

If you don't believe go see all those soul eater Winter Orb builds that shoot out 100 projectiles a second.

Ahh so only the description is getting updated ?
Fair enough then, it's a nerf when moving.
A more-than-deserve nerf of course, but still.

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Fruz wrote:

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Winter Orb projectile frequency always scaled with cast speed. It just wasn't noted on the gem.

So it's nerfed.

If you don't believe go see all those soul eater Winter Orb builds that shoot out 100 projectiles a second.

Ahh so only the description is getting updated ?
Fair enough then, it's a nerf when moving.
A more-than-deserve nerf of course, but still.

Yeah the same builds will now shoot at half the rate it used to be whilst moving and at the same rate as before whilst channeling.

Most Winter Orb builds also already had taken cast speed before so they can't suddenly get a lot more to counter the nerf.

People will still play it but will likely have to slow down a bit to clear the screen fully. However the soul eater builds probably won't notice the loss in clear speed much as they shot out projectiles like a machine gun. So halving that doesn't matter too much. Single target will be a lot worse though if they can't stand still and channel.

Though the damage on the good soul eater builds was high enough that bosses don't take longer than a few seconds. So this nerf only really hits the non-soul eater builds.

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Miská wrote:

Ahh so what you are saying is that you only need to spend 50 mandatory points into cast speed + make your jewels cast speed to get on the same level as pre nerf WO?

You're right, doesn't sound like a nerf at all.

I don't think the change to WO was that bad. But pretending it was a massive buff is just ridiculous.

The majority of those points are either on the way or are hybrid together with damage. This allows for skilling into the majority without downsides.

For instance: Coordination, Nimbleness, Lucidity, Retribution, Light of Divinity and Precision and Frostwalker are stuff you'll either Always take anyway or (in the case of Coordination) take very likely.

To get into the starter nodes you'll get rid of either a crit node (Better for single-target) or life (with EB/MoM not much of an issue for survivability)

Singular Focus also is a hybrid channeling-node. You can either take it or move somewhere into life. That's your lvl 90 build then.

Lvl 100... well... do whatever, your build is done by 90, stack whichever stuff you prefer, pure damage is the best DPS outcome, you can simply get into more life as well.

Same goes for the jewels, pure damage is a bit better, not even remotely needed though, you can simply play it with 1 damage stat 1 speed stat and life or ES. Or even ignore damage on everything but 1-2 of them completely and be more then fine. Main damage source from the passive-tree but because the skill is so broken with trickster it's fair game to do basically anything.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Winter Orb projectile frequency always scaled with cast speed. It just wasn't noted on the gem.

So it's nerfed.

If you don't believe go see all those soul eater Winter Orb builds that shoot out 100 projectiles a second.

Yes, thanks for stating it, I re-read the whole part and actually yes... it does. Never realized it though as cast-speed was convenience one way or the other and fairly mandatory to a degree to get stacks up quickly... and the majority of cast-speed is on the tree anyways.

Yep, nerf, besides the buff in duration since you don't need to stack duration nodes anymore.

Nonetheless.... ok, we do 50% less damage in total? Who cares with 4 mil per orb? and around 500k without Shroud? It doesn't matter in this case sadly. The nerf wasn't even remotely enough... nor in the right direction (besides range). The base mechanics are still broken as can be, namely conversion interacting with multiple projectiles in a very bad way since we can easily double-dip the conversion-line.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Though the damage on the good soul eater builds was high enough that bosses don't take longer than a few seconds. So this nerf only really hits the non-soul eater builds.

Trickster isn't affected at all, besides ES-nerf and less dodge-chance. The build was (and is) the strongest available single-target build in the game, even outperforming a fully build Scourge-Arrow.... which is literal madness when we think about the auto-target mechanic.

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Trickster isn't affected at all, besides ES-nerf and less dodge-chance. The build was (and is) the strongest available single-target build in the game, even outperforming a fully build Scourge-Arrow.... which is literal madness when we think about the auto-target mechanic.

Well the basic nerf to damage while moving is still there. And this is a huge nerf to clearspeed, although almost no nerf to certain fights.

A build that could just stand there channeling WO, killing a boss in a few seconds will still do that. However map clear is much lower, because you only produce half as many projectiles while moving.

This is actually not even a bad nerf, because the broken thing about WO was the insanely high clearspeed because you could just run around mobs with much higher range than Blade Vortex provides. On actual boss killing Winterorb does really well, but in theory it is still outclassed by Blade Vortex, the advantage it has is the higher range.

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Though the damage on the good soul eater builds was high enough that bosses don't take longer than a few seconds. So this nerf only really hits the non-soul eater builds.

The problem here is the souleater part, you can melt any bosses with almost any spell with it.

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Kulze wrote:

Nonetheless.... ok, we do 50% less damage in total? Who cares with 4 mil per orb? and around 500k without Shroud? It doesn't matter in this case sadly. The nerf wasn't even remotely enough... nor in the right direction (besides range). The base mechanics are still broken as can be, namely conversion interacting with multiple projectiles in a very bad way since we can easily double-dip the conversion-line.

I don't think 99.999% of WO builds even get close to that. Since when do we put the top build with the top gear on a pedestal and use it as an example to where it can be nerfed to and still be alright.

I've played Worb in SSFHC last league multiple times, it was really strong. Stupidly strong almost I would say. But those numbers are an illusion for most people. With a 50% nerf I would def not play it though. 80% of the builds survivability is based upon being able to speed run through packs while killing them, and channeling while nothing is in range.

With gear in the hundreds of exalt range every single skill will be doing pretty well. Doesn't mean that they can all take 50% hits to the dmg just because on the high high end you will be alright.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well the basic nerf to damage while moving is still there. And this is a huge nerf to clearspeed, although almost no nerf to certain fights.

Not really... unless you played Inpulsa Elementalist. This one wasn't set-up for high damage, just survivability and enough damage to be a great farmer. Boss-damage was fairly bad.

Use the cold to fire + Pyre + extra chaos combination, suddenly the skill can be set to 0 base damage and it will still be fine and uber-elder viable without less investment then a melee-build had to do.

So... 50% less DPS while walking is utterly useless to grind clear-speed down, sure... we won't one-shot some rares, the second hit will take care of that while running by though.

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Miská wrote:

I don't think 99.999% of WO builds even get close to that. Since when do we put the top build with the top gear on a pedestal and use it as an example to where it can be nerfed to and still be alright.

Because you're reaching 250k per orb easily in SSF by lvl 95 with a proper Trickster build. All you need is 2 shaped wands, a shaped amulet and a shaped ring.
Everything else is just common stuff, those values are with a Tabula btw with 'decent' jewels.

As soon as you can run T16 you'll stack up massively beyond that.

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Miská wrote:

I've played Worb in SSFHC last league multiple times, it was really strong. Stupidly strong almost I would say. But those numbers are an illusion for most people. With a 50% nerf I would def not play it though. 80% of the builds survivability is based upon being able to speed run through packs while killing them, and channeling while nothing is in range.

Did you play it with conversion? Namely cold to fire + pyre? If not it wasn't strong, it was mediocre.

Cold to fire is a normal gem, Pyre is a fairly common unique. You double-dip conversion this way, which is the main issue.

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Miská wrote:

With gear in the hundreds of exalt range every single skill will be doing pretty well. Doesn't mean that they can all take 50% hits to the dmg just because on the high high end you will be alright.

The 500k damage per Orb is 5-10 ex total gear, so no, not the case.


So, why does that happen?

Well, we got WO which is a cold skill. All elemental/spell and projectile increases count for it.
Then we convert to fire, all of those count AGAIN.
Then trickster adds extra chaos, also you're stacking extra chaos on gear as much as possible (T2 rolls are more then fine).
Boom... uber-DPS while allowing more then enough mods for defense.

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Miská wrote:

If first you didn't have to channel it and now you do. That's called a difference. No matter how much you 'ignore' it. In the future if you want to ignore someones point, maybe it's best to refrain from quoting that person to begin with. Thanks.

I never said it wasn't different though. It's very different, but it's a good, much justified change. WO isn't supposed to be "passive damage while spamming whirling blades" it's a channel skill, so now, you channel as intended.