Concerns about the dungeon-randomization method!

Minor concerns, but some nonetheless...

Before you respond, it would be good to watch the following video on YouTube on the GGG channel. Watch from 6min's in to 7min's in as just a good primer, or if you feel my summary below is confusing in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcM9Ynfzll0&feature=channel_video_title


SUMMARY OF RANDOMIZATION:

Starting at 6:00 minutes, they describe how they go about creating a random dungeon. Basically, the engine divides a large area into a random grouping of smaller squares and rectangles (each representing a room), and randomly assigns a difficulty weight to each of them. The engine then finds the easiest path based on the difficulty weight from the starting point to the end (linked rooms from the beginning to the end), and temporarily throws out the other rooms. This is done so the software "knows" it has a definitive path to success that is evenly playable.

After that, some of the rooms that were removed are added back in, this time based on if they were located next to an 'easiest-path' room instead of based on difficulty (a "hard" room can be included due to location). Another room or two can be added back in attached to these new rooms as well, again based on proximity and not difficulty. This is done to give the dungeon a maze or labyrinth feel as the player won't know which door or passage way is actually the "correct" path - they might continue on the easiest-path or get side tracked for one or two rooms (maybe three).


MY THOUGHTS:

I don't have any problems with this and the programmer in me loves all the geeky details. In fact, I wouldn't mind an algorithmic explanation of how the engine randomizes in detail, but that shall be another post for another time.

My fear is that with this current setup, it falls back into a dungeon layout typical to both random and non random RPG's where you simply select which door to go through until you have found "the right one" (which you figure out later when the path you have chosen is a dead-end). It becomes easy, at least for me, to see the man behind the curtain when I encounter this too frequently, regardless of great the game is (NWN is a good example - let me know if you want more detail on this reference).

I wouldn't mind some changes to the current system, as outlined below:

A) Perhaps make it so that TWO paths are created from start to end and build the dungeon around that - maybe even trace the easiest and hardest path, or maybe easiest and second-easiest.

B) Perhaps create a new pseudo-start from somewhere midway in the easiest path, and trace a path to the end from there and build the dungeon around that.

C) Probably the simplest to do - have some of those second and third rooms off the main trail connect back into the main trail instead of dead-ending. If this actually already the case, perhaps make it more frequent.


What are your thoughts? Even if you actually feel that the current system is adequate, how would YOU enhance it for maze-ier dungeons?


A side thought I have was to give us the option at the beginning of the dungeon, right before it loads, to have the dungeon built around the hardest-path instead of the easiest path. This would give you a difficulty within a difficulty (Epic dungeon, so to speak, within your current difficulty), on a per-dungeon basis.

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BINARYGOD wrote:

A) Perhaps make it so that TWO paths are created from start to end and build the dungeon around that - maybe even trace the easiest and hardest path, or maybe easiest and second-easiest.

I like this idea a lot actually. If its possible with the game I don't see why a dungeon level can't have more then one entrance or exit. Maybe have one path populated with slightly stronger enemies, sure you can take the easier path all the time but it adds some variety.

I haven't played the game yet and I don't know if this is already or not but why not have some side passages that lead down to optional levels that have stronger enemies, and if you get to the end you might be greeted with a few chests and a pack of those randomly named monsters. These levels could appear randomly in a dungeon.

Just a few thoughts.

Not played the beta yet but I know I hate a dead end, would be great if it was less likely, although I think it is in some ways confusing to have 2 routes (you may sometimes double back on yourself) I think all in all it would definetly be something to look at.

about the dungeon we need a 4 player team

Great thoughts. These issues have already been addressed though. A lot more functionality has been added to the dungeon generator since that video was made. Dungeons can have multiple divergent paths from entrance to exit now, for example. There's also a lot more diversity in room sizing and layout than there used to be.

GGG realizes that the key to replayability is a good random dungeon generator and they've put a ton of work into it.

No need. There are uncommon and rare creatures scattered randomly throughout the instances so it's worth exploring all of each level. I've had some wacky maps where on one play through it more resembled a terrace and then the next play through it was a linear level without much in the way of tributaries.

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tpapp157 wrote:

Great thoughts. These issues have already been addressed though. A lot more functionality has been added to the dungeon generator since that video was made. Dungeons can have multiple divergent paths from entrance to exit now, for example. There's also a lot more diversity in room sizing and layout than there used to be.

GGG realizes that the key to replayability is a good random dungeon generator and they've put a ton of work into it.

Thanks for sharing this, good news abound. And still a very nice post OP. Well thought out points and a good read.

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Pelican wrote:

Thanks for sharing this, good news abound. And still a very nice post OP. Well thought out points and a good read.

I can only agree with what you said. Good information about how stuff works and a rather interesting subject.

Few of us out there really know or understand how this random level generator works, but now we at least got an idea. :)

Thanks for the positive feedback and updated info, glad to see my fears are for naught! =-)


Really hope I get into the beta - I am starved for some aRPG and this game is exactly what the doctor ordered!

A very informative piece of erm... information. Glad to see a lot of work has been put to make the game highly replayable.