Underutilized Skills: Defense

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Getting a less effective build to high levels doesn't change the mechanics' relative effectiveness.

Aaaand there you go.
Legatus1982, who managed to waste 2 ascendancy keystones out of 4 on his lvl 90 Jugg, knows better than the lvl 99 #1 SSF HC melee player, especially about that one specific build (the lvl99).


Of course he knows,what else ?

nuf said here.

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Fruz wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Getting a less effective build to high levels doesn't change the mechanics' relative effectiveness.

Aaaand there you go.
Legatus1982, who managed to waste 2 ascendancy keystones out of 4 on his lvl 90 Jugg, knows better than the lvl 99 #1 SSF HC melee player, especially about that one specific build (the lvl99).


Of course he knows,what else ?

nuf said here.

I give you the chance to change my mind with a very simple test that will take literally ten minutes to try and your response is to make some personal attacks about my jugg because I left the kaoms roots on instead of swapping them out once I got unstoppable. It's also arguable that any points are "wasted" when kaom's roots are easily the best source of life you can get on boots that don't really cost anything.

And you wonder why we are always arguing. I didn't at any point claim to be better than that guy. What makes you think he believes his build is better than ms jugg? Maybe he just wanted to play a mines build.

This is a very simple issue, test the two defenses and see which is better. Of course I'm certain you know what the outcome will be.

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Avathacis wrote:

2) Mechanics. Indomitable actually reduces the damage taken from a critical strike by 6% or 4.6% of the total damage taken (according to the wiki) due to the natural Critical Strike Multiplier on most monsters.

Not true. 20% reduction of all damage taken is big reduction.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

I give you the chance to change my mind with a very simple test that will take literally ten minutes to try and your response is to make some personal attacks about my jugg because I left the kaoms roots on instead of swapping them out once I got unstoppable. It's also arguable that any points are "wasted" when kaom's roots are easily the best source of life you can get on boots that don't really cost anything.

And you wonder why we are always arguing. I didn't at any point claim to be better than that guy. What makes you think he believes his build is better than ms jugg? Maybe he just wanted to play a mines build.

This is a very simple issue, test the two defenses and see which is better. Of course I'm certain you know what the outcome will be.

What ? mines ? It's a zerk, not a saboteur, I said the first melee, not the first on the ladder all skills included.

The guy is playing melee, and you literally implied that he didn't optimize his character, when your character isn't optimized at all.
The difference is : he is playing in a harder mode, and is way beyond your level.

Which one would survive better in harder content ? He would, because his targets would be dead, where you would lack the dps and eventually just rip.

Regarding the bolded part, it's not even the only element, and it isn't arguable at all, pretty much giving up on an ascendancy keystone when ascendancy give incredible boosts is really not arguable regarding optimization.


Point is : no, his build is not 'less effective', Acro is just very strong, because it's incredibly cost effective and dodge / spell dodge are good defenses, but like every other defenses, it needs other layers.

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koszmarnica wrote:

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Avathacis wrote:

2) Mechanics. Indomitable actually reduces the damage taken from a critical strike by 6% or 4.6% of the total damage taken (according to the wiki) due to the natural Critical Strike Multiplier on most monsters.

Not true. 20% reduction of all damage taken is big reduction.

It isn't 'all damage taken', it's only the extra damage provided by the crit ( = calculated from the crit multiplier )

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Fruz wrote:

What ? mines ? It's a zerk, not a saboteur, I said the first melee, not the first on the ladder all skills included.

The guy is playing melee, and you literally implied that he didn't optimize his character, when your character isn't optimized at all.
The difference is : he is playing in a harder mode, and is way beyond your level.

Which one would survive better in harder content ? He would, because his targets would be dead, where you would lack the dps and eventually just rip.

Regarding the bolded part, it's not even the only element, and it isn't arguable at all, pretty much giving up on an ascendancy keystone when ascendancy give incredible boosts is really not arguable regarding optimization.

Point is : no, his build is not 'less effective', Acro is just very strong, because it's incredibly cost effective and dodge / spell dodge are good defenses, but like every other defenses, it needs other layers.

Ok, but that's just your opinion. You also still haven't proved that guy thinks Acro berserk survives better then armor jugg. I asked for an objective test and I'm still waiting for it. You seem visibly opposed to actually testing the two types of defenses.

The bolded part is absolutely arguable until you find a cheaper pair of boots that gives the same life boost. I'm aware the ascendancy point is being wasted in part, so yes the build is incorrect in that regard. I chose the move speed and stun immunity over the damage nodes. But I'm still completely doing fine with the build which is a testament to how broke shit jugg is.

Frankly the argument that an ms jugg would die to literally anything accidentally is laughable to me, but you've still been given any opportunity to change my mind about acrobatics which you've avoided several times now.

EDIT: I'm also trying to find this zerker you're talking about, and all I see is a dead one at 99, seems like acro didn't work so well for him. Regardless I'm only concerned with objective testing, not this "look at this one guy" anecdotal stuff

...seriously?

you can't run the lab without buying a carry, but you're criticizing someone for RIPing at lvl 99?

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robmafia wrote:

...seriously?

you can't run the lab without buying a carry, but you're criticizing someone for RIPing at lvl 99?

I said I'd rather pay for lab, not I can't do it. As usual everything coming out of your mouth is either an outright lie or very clearly personal attacks. Might explain all the banning going on in your signature, strangely you're the greatest poe player that ever lived doing all the content without allocating skill points or equipping your characters but you haven't learned how to post on a forum without getting banned four times in as many months.

Its a very simple task, compare tank of evasion vs armor builds. STRANGELY YOU SEEM TO WANT TO TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE ACTUAL POINT.

actually, you did say that your build couldn't run the lab.

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robmafia wrote:

actually, you did say that your build couldn't run the lab.

Still wrong and still avoiding the point, nice post

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Legatus1982 wrote:

It's very simple but I'll explain it more clearly:
1. some builds are better at lab than others, fact not opinion
2. in hc, it is optimal to take advantage of every chance you can to minimize the risk of death
3. therefor it is objectively better for a suboptimal lab build to pay for a lab carry if you are not already using a lab build

Yes, it is theoretically POSSIBLE for literally any build to do lab. It is THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE to do lab on a character that has not allocated any skill points and isn't wearing any gear. That doesn't mean it is an intelligent decision to do so, least of all on a suboptimal hc build. This is not at all taking into account the fact that the player may not WANT to do that content, or their skill levels at all, in the first place. Which is part of the reason it's so hilarious watching you post about how everyone who doesn't want to lab must be terrible at POE.

You seem to have trouble reading, saying things that are actually true, and actually staying on the topic so how about you try your VERY TIPPY TOP HARDEST and actually show some real evidence that evasion is somehow not strictly worse then armor.

Again its a very simple test

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Legatus1982 wrote:

EDIT: I'm also trying to find this zerker you're talking about, and all I see is a dead one at 99, seems like acro didn't work so well for him. Regardless I'm only concerned with objective testing, not this "look at this one guy" anecdotal stuff

You do realize I got 100 with exactly the same build in SSF HC Deleve just with ground slam instead of Smite and the reason for that is: In Delve wasnt the fucking blood architect bug crashing the game?

Mitigation is expensive, RNG defenses are cheap as fuck (just a stibnite blind is 50% evasion aka double survivability against attacks) as long as player does not get oneshot or twoshot and he wont be threeshot anyway with gud RNG defenses.

Now with the new syndicate mobs taking phys damage mitigation might be a thing but a player can just get L-coil, taste of hate or just dont do the syndicate anymore after tier 9 maps or whatever.

Before Tora etc, phys damage was nothing to care about once a player has 8k hp and Ahn's Helmet and has good RNG defenses in every day map clearing.

Elemental damage is the stuff that wrecks players in casual map clearing cause it has much higher numbers and there is no immortal call for it. Armour does absolutely nothing here but evasion and dodge are doing a lot against that because getting only hit by 1/4 or 1/5 of the shit instead of everything means 5x the survivability in that "not oneshot" setting and if you also have 25% instant heal with Warbringer and leech cap every second then nothing will ever kill ya except if its a oneshot or a game crash and as I said before there is no phys oneshot at maps without stupid mobs and without Tora when you have 8500ehp and anticrit ahn helmet, even with 10% increased damage taken.

Totally agreeing with OP those nodes should be redesigned and buffed so someone actually skills them for once.