how dodge/evasion works ?

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remiIafo wrote:
Regarding Flameblast (like atziri's) DOES NOT "HIT" , it counts as a ground Damage like caustic clouds or corpse explosion which means you CANNOT evade, dodge or Block it.
This is definitely not true. And there is no concept of "ground damage" in PoE.

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remiIafo wrote:
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Goldarm5 wrote:
There are 4 damage categorys, which are Attack, Spell, Damage over Time and Secondary dmg. The reason Caustic Clouds damage cant be blocked is that it is Damage over Time, which doesnt hit and without hit you cant block it. Corpse explosions are Secondary dmg, which does hit, but cant be blocked/dodged because there are only Attack/Spell Block/Dodge. If GGG would decide to put Secondary dmg Block/Dodge into the game you would be able to Block/Dodge corpse explosions.


How is what i said misinformation? all you did was support my statement in a more articulated and detailed way. We can agree that flameblast isn't a DoT, so then it would count as secondary damage.
No, Flameblast deals spell damage.

The mechanic which is likely throwing people off here is that Atziri has two versions of her main skills - a regular version, and an empowered/vaal version. Each use of the regular skill adds a vaal soul to her empowered/vaal version of that same skill. So each time she uses her regular flameblast, her super-vaal-flameblast gains a soul. Her super vaal flameblast is different from the regular one in that it creates a flameblast on each player in the instance, and one centered on her location, at the same time. It also can't be dodged (but can be blocked), and I think has fire pen in addition to higher damage.

The difference between the two versions of her skills used to be better known, but I suspect with more people doing her solo these days, the most obvious visual difference between the two is gone, so people don't pick up on it as much.
In double-checking this stuff with Rory I learned there's also a mechanic where the soul cost of one of her empowered vaal skills is lowered based on which of her reflections you kill in the split phase, allowing her to cast that one more often from then on.
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torturo wrote:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
It also can't be dodged (but can be blocked)


That's interesting. Does it mean that game doesn't treat dodge/block the same way in terms of mechanically equal sources of generic nonentropic damage "avoidance" ?
Of course they aren't treated the same way - they're fundamentally very different things. Evasion and Dodge avoid Hits - the (usual) process is to test evasion/dodge against something you're trying to hit, and if that check passes, move on to damage calculation for that hit.

Block is part of that damage calculation. Block doesn't avoid Hits, Block is a chance to remove damage (but not interruption it would cause) from a hit. Part of damage calculation is to check the defender's block chance, and if they block it, zero out the damage and set a flag on the hit to say it was blocked. The hit still happens.

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Larloch1821 wrote:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
[Atziris] Flameblast deals spell damage.
[...]
It also can't be dodged (but can be blocked).



How could this POSSIBLY be true? Did you mean "cant be EVADED?"

How can a Spell damage hit not be dodgeable? Phase acrobatics literally says "chance to dodge spell damage".

I am sorry but this overturns everything I thought I knew about how spell dodge works.
In exactly the same way as, for example, Lightning Strike projectiles always hit (can't be evaded/dodged) if the melee attack hits an enemy. Specific skills can have special behaviour that's different to the general case. Ususally dealing spell damage to something is done after checking dodge, Atziri's super-special-empowered-vaal-flameblast doesn't do that check.

While it probably wasn't your intention to mislead, I'd appreciate it if you edited you post to break up the two parts you quoted from me, or added an elipsis orsometihng to indicate those two lines didn't actually follow each other. I've been around these forums long enough to know that in a month or two, someone's going to see that quote, not see the source post and take it as me saying that flameblast in general can't be dodged. I'd prefer to avoid the proliferation of that kjind of misinformation, even accidentally.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Apr 25, 2018, 9:12:45 PM
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Larloch1821 wrote:
Huh, TIL. Now this makes me wonder. In the uber elder fight the invincible boss can't proc on hit effects, so I would assume it invulnerability is some sort of 100% avoidance. Would that perhaps mean that one could exploit worms+lightning strike to deal damage to the invulnerable one?
Nope. I'm not intinmately familiar with the internals of that fight, but a quick conversation with Rory confirms my suspiscion that the Uber Elder is becoming what we internally call "hidden" (because this state was first developed for things like burrowed Devourers or other cases of monsters which aren't "revealed" yet). That makes them invisible to anything looking for targets - your skills don't see anything here to even try to hit, so they won't even get to the point of doing an evasion/dodge check - you could consider it effectively a level "above" evasion. It effectively "doesn't exist" for most purposes.

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Larloch1821 wrote:
Also edited my post, sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for that. Have updated my quoting of your quote of me to match.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Apr 25, 2018, 9:12:14 PM

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