3.1: RIP Reflect. Long Live Clear Speed Meta.

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grepman wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

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grepman wrote:

reflect was literally in the game for sole purpose: limit dps output
new reflect is best handled by stacking damage and quickly one-shotting shit

seems legit

Just as long as you're not genuinely surprised about this. Because that would display an immense amount of ignorance regarding where the game has been heading for years now.

Im not too surprised after anything past ascendancy.

with that said, GGG still does moves that give me hope (3.0, removal of VP, etc) and then moves like this disappoint me. again, Im not surprised, but still disappointed.

I do like most of the new skills/supports though. I do like that rory acknowledged the new reflect doesnt really do what old reflect was designed to do. At least they're honest about it.

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grepman wrote:

yes the clear speed meta is the result to the catering to the brain dead style of play where negating a mechanic is 'better' than playing around it.

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DevilDog92 wrote:

Reflect was easily mitigated to begin with for most builds, and for the rest, it was just flat out impossible to deal with... A poor mechanic in its current iteration, glad it is being looked at.

yeah I have to agree with devildog tbh.

Now you have to play around reflect, with you motor skills in game while playing the game. Everyone has to.

Heres my experience of reflect...

200k - 450k dps physical melee attacker with no vaal pact or acuity, has 6000 - 7000 hp and 75% all res: doesnt give a shit about reflect, it literally does nothing, I just kill them without even bothering to take notice they exist. I can kill bosses easily and I can faceroll guardians given a few minutes.

200k - 450k dps elemental melee attacker with no vaal pact or acuity, has 6000 - 7000 hp and 75% all res: doesnt give a shit about reflect, it literally does nothing, I just kill them without even bothering to take notice they exist. I can kill bosses easily and I can faceroll guardians given a few minutes.

200k dps arc spellcast using acuity gloves with 12,000 hp and 86% lightning resist: despite having acuity, double the life and all the resist I could stack I could actually kill myself to reflect almost instantly, even offscreen without me even knowing it was there thanks to arc chaining away. 200k dps on arc is slow on bosses, cannot realistically kill guardians because my dps is just too low for them, but I could instantly die to 1 ele reflect monster despite having instant leech on crit gloves and about 88% crit chance.



how does this make sense? I dont play around it and it doesnt make any sense, some of my characters dont care about it so it doesnt effect my play at all and the other instantly dies, despite having less dps + more hp + more resists?

Its not a fair mechanic, this is actually a fair mechanic everyone has to play around, you have to pay attention and dodge it. Theres a list of builds as long as your arm right now that dont give a shit about reflect, from totems to summons to traps to miners to simply attack builds who completely mitigate it by default and then theres skills like arc that become literally unplayable because despite not having enough dps to take down the deep endgame challenge bosses you can just instantly die to reflect even with the gloves on, you basically need vaal pact, the vaal pact that doesnt exist in 3.1. Theres builds that dont give a shit about reflect and then builds that have to take vaal pact to even be playable with reflect in the game, who then take vaal pact and then dont give a shit about reflect.

Now everyone gives a shit about reflect and has to play around it in game with actually play skills, not just invalidate it passively in pob before u even start the character. I actually think thats a really positive change.



If the game is basically you kill yourself, reflect, volatile, some kind of kill yourself directly or die to something a mob does as it dies and thats the only way you die because mobs cant kill you then the game is shit, its in a terrible shit state and theres nothing about that worth holding on to. Bearers are great because u play around them, in the moment, you have to pay attention and if you do theres a way out. All these other mechanics where you either dont have to pay attention because you passively beat them on the skill tree or you just instantly die because theres no way to actually kill the monster with ur skill if you didnt/couldnt passively nullify it are lame. A game cant need inescapable deaths to stay healthy because if thats all youve got standing in the way of players the game from that point of view is already dead.

I agree with folks saying that reflect was not equitable in how it impacted builds. Different skills certainly struggled more with it than others. That being said, I personally agree with the function that reflect was trying to provide -- resistance to DPS and speed without a hard cap on damage or movement and clear speed. I hate caps on damage, attack speed, etc....It's just an unintelligent way to balance. Just to clarify, it impacts movement/clear speed because if you care about reflect you don't want to run around pewpewpew'ing without paying attention to what you're shooting at.

I just like when everything you may do has a counter of some sort that you have to think about, but that's largely because one of my personal favorite things about this game is theory crafting.

Want to really enjoy the game? Don't ever use any build but your own.

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Nephalim wrote:

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innervation wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Is there some kind of notion anyone plays poe for the challenge or achievement factor as opposed to grinding as hard and as fast as they like?

Incredible elitism. Tons of people play this game for the challenge and achievement of building a better character than they did last league, and getting farther than they did last league. Just because your first league happened many moons ago doesn't make your experience playing the game as you do now anywhere near the average experience.

The game is simply not that complex and challenge really only comes from being able to endure high repetitious and mindless play without dying.

You're doing it again. The exact same thing.

I don't know why they over think reflect... Why not just give reflect a proximity range?

The closer you get, the less damage is reflected.

Melee would get the least amount of reflect since they are already man mode...
Off screen projectile characters would actually have to be scared...

I really think the existing mechanic needed tweaking, not a complete rework to something that won't kill players.

1) Make the reflect aura super obvious glowy something with a shield around them
2) Make reflect range and proximity based to force players into close combat

This alone would slow players down a little and make player be more careful with their aim...

If the devs can change reflect to a volatile, or some kind of warning system, then the game is heading into an excellent direction.

I've hated dying to reflect. I've tried many different things to try and counter it. I've raged over deaths that I couldn't prevent. This puts POE into the all time best games for me.

I just could not enjoy the game with elem reflect. Other times, if I died, I would acknowledge my mistake and move on, but with reflect, it would just piss me off.

Like other deaths, sure, punish me for not playing properly, but with reflect it was just frustrating as hell as my frostbolts would go off screen.

Great job GGG! Take my money!

The thing that has always pissed me off about reflect is that the mobs get it in spades.

15% reflect for a whole pack or a whole f*ing MAP has always been just flat out stupid. Especially since this game all but demands you utilize an AoE style skill to deal with trash mobs - which results, often enough, in getting one shot before you ever see the rare providing the reflect or if you're on an unidentified map (which always seen to be both dual reflect and temp chains) and utilize your first attack.

Especially considering that, as players, running alone for the most part, we get... reflects X amount (a hard count, not a percentage) of damage to X type of attacker.

There needs to be modifiers possible for players just as there are for overtuned twink mobs.

Such as and most importantly, reflects X percentage of damage - either physical, elemental, or both. Not to just 'melee attackers' or some stupid crap like that. And it needs to be a pretty high percentage, 15-20% at least. For packs that's not much, individually, but for bosses it could be a very useful function whereas now it's just a trash mod.
Also, there should be modifiers on top of that as well. Reflects X% of damage taken as splash (radius). Adds reflected damage to next attack/spell. Ect ect.

Did you think a chieftain Flame totem is still a good build to start a new league and kill boss ?

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I don't know why they over think reflect... Why not just give reflect a proximity range?

The closer you get, the less damage is reflected.

Melee would get the least amount of reflect since they are already man mode...
Off screen projectile characters would actually have to be scared...

I really think the existing mechanic needed tweaking, not a complete rework to something that won't kill players.

1) Make the reflect aura super obvious glowy something with a shield around them
2) Make reflect range and proximity based to force players into close combat

This alone would slow players down a little and make player be more careful with their aim...

why do people think that offscreening yourself is good design? it offers no counterplay, no insight, no skill, you just randomly die to something you cant react to.

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Off screen projectile characters would actually have to be scared...

Dying to something before you can even see it... like PoE doesn't have enough of this crap.

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Nubatron wrote:

I agree with folks saying that reflect was not equitable in how it impacted builds. Different skills certainly struggled more with it than others. That being said, I personally agree with the function that reflect was trying to provide -- resistance to DPS and speed without a hard cap on damage or movement and clear speed. I hate caps on damage, attack speed, etc....It's just an unintelligent way to balance. Just to clarify, it impacts movement/clear speed because if you care about reflect you don't want to run around pewpewpew'ing without paying attention to what you're shooting at.

I just like when everything you may do has a counter of some sort that you have to think about, but that's largely because one of my personal favorite things about this game is theory crafting.

Want to really enjoy the game? Don't ever use any build but your own.

ill go without the headache of making my own build thank you