Defenses are So bad!!!
" Or you can get Brass Dome, and double that amount of armour... Not even to mention crit immunity... For evasion, there is Queen of the Forest, that not just has massive evasion, HP and resists (GL to find a rare even close to that), but also provides movement speed bonus if your evasion is really high. GGG actually buffed armour and evasion values on items, to make those defences better. It was a nice move, but it's NOT enogh to make them viable. Even if GGG doubles those number again, the inherit flaws of those defences wont let them be truly good in current PoE endgame. IGN: MortalKombat Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504 There is no knowledge That is not power Last edited by MortalKombat3 on Sep 18, 2017, 1:08:00 PM
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" Great post, my sentiments entirely. Can hardly wait for defence to mean more than a sole keystone + huge damage... PS: And no, a 6.7K HP + 19K armour + 2.5K evasion + 8 EC + 17% block + ToH + Lion's Roar + Fortify + Juggernaut + Tukohama/Solaris doesn't feel that bad up to tier 15 as oneshot/burst shot damage goes. PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days... |
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" brass dome is shit though right? Well, ok I can only talk in my world. In my world brass dome is maybe a skin transfer at best, I think its complete garbage and I would never use it on anything ever. No life, reduced movement speed, reduced block chance? Vendor tier garbage. Now for me, a QotF, is it better than a rare evasion chest? Bit low on life but ya, movespeed, its probably better in some cases. I can see that in other peoples world where theyre playing softcore, clearspeed junky stuff, not really going in hard against savage map content just plowing down those shaped t11s hyper fast with the sort of build that just 1 shots half the screen every time they press the button, sure, legit armour. My world, QotF is vendor trash along with rare evasion chests. I use them on magic finders or like t2 map cash farmers, but theyre shit. I dont think all out evasion is a viable defense for someone who never wants to die and wants to do a load of different maps playing skills that arnt screen clearing so fast that nothing ever hits you. In my head either you use a lightning coil or you are hybrid armour + evasion in which case you wear a pure armour chest because grace is a flat. Maybe theres some niche things like an iron reflex block character that has some % evasion somewhere and the rare zodiac or whatever becomes preferable, I dunno. But for me an evasion character has a coil, a pure armour chest or perhaps a kaoms. I woudlnt even humor a belly, I think its shit, but Id use a belly before Id use a QotF or a rare Ev chest on a serious character. In my head, pure armour is only viable with block, so brass dome is vendor food. Pure evasion is only viable with coil, so QotF is vendor food. Hybrid ar+ev is fine but you probably want a pure armour or hybrid ar+ev chest, so rare eevasion chests are also vendor. Thats the tldr of it. I appreciate other people use these things and they work for them though. |
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You don't need armor or evasion. Hell you don't even need VP. VP is simply if you don't feel like moving and just wanna stand still/tank.
The only thing that matters is DPS. Each shaper/uber atziri phase with a good build takes you like 10-15 seconds. Minotaur and phoenix take about 20-30 seconds. Hydra and chimera take longer only because they disappear to spawn adds. No armor/evasion/vaal pact is needed when you can kill everything so fast before it can kill you. As long as the dps meta remains (Burst it down before it kills you), the only "defense" you need is MORE DMG. The other defense you need amounts to spamming ur flask every now and then for more dmg and the extra defense from basalt/granite/taste of hate/etc. Now when I make a build that isn't strong enough cause I just wanna try something new/have fun, then yes I have to actually dodge and worry about my defense and deal with boss mechnics. Otherwise ev/ar are useless stats and ur better off stacking more dmg. I never take VP btw. Its a keystone I personally want removed. Player dmg would have to go back to almost closed beta values for defense to matter. Back then blues/rares could actually kill you. Now, even endgame bosses are no different from blues/rares with certain builds. Last edited by SoujiroSeta on Sep 18, 2017, 4:05:27 PM
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" It's not garbage. I use it as swap gear VS high-tier maps with crit rolls. Without it, mobs will do almost 2x damage with crits, and will do it quite often, sometimes resulting in oneshots. It's better be a bit slower, than dead. Oh, and i dont have block anyways. I just wanted to say, that very cheap uniques can match godly-rolled rares in terms of pure evasion, and even blast them out of the way (in term of pure armour). It doesnt make those uniques so good, unlike LIFE, that makes uniques godly (Kaom, Belly). IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504 There is no knowledge That is not power |
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fair enough. the way I make characters I play crit mods on red maps all the time, crit mod + 2 other damage mods and I never get 1 shot, virtually never even lose half my life to a single hit or string of hits. I dont really pay attention to crit, its a mod thats just something I look over like its not there.
Honestly the mods I look out for are reflect of my damage type, temp chains if Im not a jug and chilled ground if the map isnt amazingly rolled, ele weak if i need to make a gear swap for that. Pretty much anything else on it my eyes just flick over, no reflect no temp chains decent quant/pack, throw it in a play it. I dont even know what the other mods were the majority of the time, by the time I step into the map its just gone from my mind and it never makes any difference. Obviously the flip of that is I probably have half the dps of making a character with less passive defense whos bombed damage on gear and passives, its not for everyone. |
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" Reflect? and i dont give a shit, can even punch Atziri in her mirror. Temporal chains? and i dont give a shit about it as well. Chill? and ... well, you know. And crit mod on T16 maps can be quite deadly, because bosses also inherit those mods. I prefer to lose 1800 HP (20% of my HP pool), but be safe from occasional 2x boss damage. It's a simple math - i get much more tankiness that i lose, that's it. Only for highest-tiers maps with crit mods, though. IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504 There is no knowledge That is not power |
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Good post everybody. Snorkle even convinced me that Armour might actually worth it against physical damage (even though i think 25K without passives and auras is not realistic at all, more like 10K-15K tops). But i do stand by my points that defenses are not that good and Damage is OP. To me there are some inherent problems regadring tankiness that have to be adressed:
1) Damage over Time. My expirience with building a 400EX tank with with low damage made me realise that in the endgame there is no other way of "tanking" extreme damage damage overtime except having high damage and outleeching it or killing the source of it really fast and use a flask to cancel it. This cannot work when your damage is low, no matter how tanky you are. All 3 primary defenses cannot do shit against damage overtime. Even secondary layers cannot do anything against it. Only leech and High DPS can take care of it. This is a REAL problem. 2) Armour does not do anything against elemental damage. So practically you are building a tank that is useless against over HALF the damage in the game. Having resists is a give. Damage is balanced with capped ele resists in mind. When you build a tank you want and need more. Suggestion(not to be taken seriously, random thoughts): Make armour in absolute numbers increase +max resists. EG. every 5K armour adds +1% to max resists. 3) Evasion does not work against spells. So it does not work against half the damage in the game as well. Suggestion(again not to be taken seriously): Make evasion in absolute numbers to add spell dodge, since i do not see how Evasion could otherwise work against spells when they do not have chance to hit. I find it unacceptable for 2 out of 3 primary defenses in the game to be useless against half the damage in the game. These are not secondary or supplementary layers of defenses. These are PRIMARY layers, and CORE mechanics in the game. ES have it's own problems as well. It is effective against all damage of course, but there are not really effective ways to sustain it mid fight when used a layer of defense over your HP. Now adressing the Vaal Pact/Damage issue: As i said, while Vaal PAct is over powered (no way around it), leech in general is EXTREMELY powerfull, and that has to do alot with how high player damage is. This had other implications as well like increasing the XP for lv100, lowering the drop rates and of course the HUGE HP pool of guardians/shaper. The main issue that defenses do not really matter is the fact that everything dies ISTANTLY (besides end game bosses). You do not even need istant leech most times because the entire screen is deleting before anything hits you, or maybe hits you once. Mathil is the living breathing example of this. Most of his characters (or at least alot) do not even take vaal pact, but survive on normal leech. He does not have any problem because his DPS is ALWAYS in the millions. I beleive that when your damage is so HIGH, vaal pact rarely matters, cause you never really have to tank, and even normal leech (especially on a slayer), is actually healing you quite quickly as well(especially if you stack an HP potion on top). Huge and EASY(not talking of someone who uses abyssus and has a mirror worthy weapon) is propably the biggest problem in PoE right now. However do not get me wrong. Vaal Pact is a problem as well that HAS to be adressed, if player damage does not go down. A fun solution that i had though a while ago, was to make istant leech a unique mechanic that only works in true glass cannons. I had though of VP giving reduced leech effectiveness, the lower your HP is, with a hard cap somewhere. EG. starting with 100% leech effectiveness at 0 HP and 0% effectiveness at 5K hp, meaning that every 1K HP from 0 up to 5K will reduce the leech effectiveness by 20% (1K hp 80% leech effectiveness, 2,5K 50%, 4K 20% etc.). Of course the same adjustment would be made for acuity. Then there you have it. Only true glass cannons can use it. | |
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Spoiler
" Well, anywhere between 15-20K armour unflasked with minimal investments is quite reachable in the bottom half of the skill tree. DoT's should be more actively mitigated in the upper half of the skill tree as Armour gets Block/Spell Block and Evasion gets Dodge/Spell Dodge. A mechanic mitigating DoT and/or chaos damage to complement ES would be in line with CI too. Armour getting +% max res would need to be like 1% per 10K armour, capped at 5% (so your players would also acknowledge that you don't need to stack more than 50K armour), and when used with other sources of increasing max res should have only 50% effectiveness... Evasion getting free spell dodge should also give a initial value and a diminishing return part, so you couldn't reach too easily the spell dodge cap... Or they could bring back a few more +1% max res nodes and making block/dodge & spell block/dodge easier to invest, without altering how armour & evasion formulas generally work... And for VP to work the way you envisioned, it's a lot more difficult to make content viable for 1K HP builds even with all the defensive mechanics in place, as in a Tier 16 map, a "sneeze" from anything will kill you if it gets through... PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"... Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days... Last edited by sofocle10000 on Sep 19, 2017, 7:07:52 AM
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Yeah, my numbers and suggestions were random. My point is that the 2 primary defenses should be reworked to be effective against all damage in the game. I do not suggest to change the game to work with 1 HP. We want to limit the use of Vaal Pact. You can have 4.5K HP resulting in 10% leech effectiveness which is still plenty now that the DPS counts in MIllions, but.... You will have 4,5K HP :P
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