Improve Acrobatics

+1 IMO defenses have to be heavily buffed and increase the number of defensive nodes is perfect for this

POE already have more than enough damage its time to add/buff some more defensive options, every player should have the option to play defensively and I really like the idea of add dodge nodes to make it easier to cap it (maybe at the cost of further decrease to block)

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torturo wrote:

Developers pigeonholed acro to evasion, and mostly towards evasion based ranged chars. That's it. The same treatment had OG.

The results is everyone avoids evasion melees on the right side of the tree - they have no other defensive option other melees use to share or are penalized for trying, but are stuck in two types of quite unreliable defenses. Especially shadow, ranger can take the path to bottom-left without downsides.

Another problem acro has is it's really hard to stack, especially phase acro. Or if you stack it (atziri step, hinekora, daresso/hyrri, raider asc. etc.) then you are limited to certain items with no further upgrades just to have higher dodge.
High block chance chars don't have such issues - both shield and DW based.

Also, while dodge is about damage avoidance, same as block, it's slightly defferent and doesn't enable counterattack passive skills the way block does.
Block is also easier to stack and even max, especially as gladiator. You can back it up with armor, evasion, whatever - without downsides. Even mom works better with it, if you have items "% mana gained when hit", as hit blocked is still a hit landed.

Basically, in the attempt to restrict block chars of getting high dodge on top of it, acro turned into a really unattractive mechanic.

IMO, taking into account the open system of the game, the only solution is to release higher variety of items with acro/phase, along with increasing the numbers in certain ascendancies. Maybe add dodge in the affix pool.
As in its current state, acro isn't trash, but mostly so-so, the choice when you got no choice.

isnt that the point? that if you have no choice, its because you are not someone who should have the choice?

"whats the point in playing melee when ranged can have all the same defenses"

how often have you heard that around here? So are you suggesting that now weve identified an area where maybe they dont have the same defensive access, we should 'fix' that by giving bow characters the game defenses that max block melee have?

Evasion melee has seriously powerful builds that can be made imo.

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CyberWizardB5 wrote:

+1 IMO defenses have to be heavily buffed and increase the number of defensive nodes is perfect for this

POE already have more than enough damage its time to add/buff some more defensive options, every player should have the option to play defensively and I really like the idea of add dodge nodes to make it easier to cap it (maybe at the cost of further decrease to block)

so nerf block, a melee typical defense that is most concentrated in a non crit area of the tree, and then boost ranged class defenses in high crit areas?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

So are you suggesting that now weve identified an area where maybe they dont have the same defensive access, we should 'fix' that by giving bow characters the game defenses that max block melee have?

I just pointed out that evasion melees are at disadvantage to ranged ones, in relation to the acro penalties, especially the block (ranged can't exploit it). In addition, evasion is an underwhelming secondary mechanic, and dodge is inferior to block.
For me it makes sense that a generally disappointing play style should have its buff, to make players even consider evasion melee as an option.

On the other hand, just removing the penalty will make a lot of gladiators indecently happy. Eventual rework, but not removal of the penalty makes more sense. Along with adding more items with dodge, or dodge as an affix. Maybe.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

so nerf block, a melee typical defense that is most concentrated in a non crit area of the tree, and then boost ranged class defenses in high crit areas?

Stack block and dodge may be misused to become nearly immortal, IMO all damage mitigation sources should be buffed and give players the option to build more defensive chars

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鬼殺し wrote:

I still feel the nerf was unnecessary.

... Right, because Vaal Pact with Acrobatics and a shield was fair.

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torturo wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

So are you suggesting that now weve identified an area where maybe they dont have the same defensive access, we should 'fix' that by giving bow characters the game defenses that max block melee have?

I just pointed out that evasion melees are at disadvantage to ranged ones, in relation to the acro penalties, especially the block (ranged can't exploit it).

But you do understand that this is likely intended ( evasion already fits ranged play-style more than armour imo ), and that acrobatic melee are a niche thing, right ?
I think that this was Snorkle's point.

Acro - just like pretty much all defensive mechanics except sheep ekhm sponge (pool + instant leech) - is horribly missunderstood and evaluated poorly

1) 'max something' is rarely a good idea. getting 40/30 for 5 points is a steal. and it SHOULD NOT BE evaluated based on how hard it is to 'max it'. entire concept of 'maxing' something is pretty murky area several players do a napkin math and do stupid things with results

2) Acro CAN be used with AR or BLOCK. there is no reason not to. sure - there is a penalty. but it takes a simple spreadsheet formula to see that there are reasons to pay the price and enjoy BOTH Acro and other layers.

3) most of POE's defences work best when taken in 'some' quantities rather than 'maxed trough the roof'.

4) using Acro + AR works and actually works pretty damn well. given the buffs to AR/EV rolls on items it will work even better in 3.0

Evasion + Block + Acro was (in fact it still IS) absurdly strong. given the spell block cap (rathpith + rumi's back then) it made for absurdly broken stuff that cheezed entire game rellying on 4k hp and luck (because there was still a chance something will hit you hard enough to kill - 1 in 200 hits but still)


what actually should be done to cut block A LOT so that with reasonable investment players get ~50% and reaching top numbers requires extra effort. right now the 'free block for everyone' (rumis.. necromancer, guardian etc 'tricks') makes capping block trivial for anyone who wishes to. this spoils players and they suddenly expect everything else to be as effective yet cheap

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Fruz wrote:

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torturo wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

So are you suggesting that now weve identified an area where maybe they dont have the same defensive access, we should 'fix' that by giving bow characters the game defenses that max block melee have?

I just pointed out that evasion melees are at disadvantage to ranged ones, in relation to the acro penalties, especially the block (ranged can't exploit it).

But you do understand that this is likely intended ( evasion already fits ranged play-style more than armour imo ), and that acrobatic melee are a niche thing, right ?
I think that this was Snorkle's point.

well, Im not sure they actually are at a disadvantage.

Ranged cant block so the block penalty doesnt hurt them... ok, but thats because an evasion melee has the option of...

evasion + block

evasion + dodge + reduced block but still some block

and an evasion ranged has the option of....

evasion + dodge

how are they at a disadvantage? They can take the same option as the ranged build, except they still have an extra layer of low level block on top, and they get an extra option the ranged build dont get. Ranged dont get the penalty because they are already at a disadvantage, and even after the penalty the option still leaves them worse off than the melee.



I feel like acro was probably created at a point in time before access to block was heavily nerfed as a way for things like bows to get a little bit of that 75/75 block action so they were not quite so shat on by how op block was. I think its a misconception to presume that acrobatics is evasions version of block, that all evasion builds should take it. That leads to the conclusion that it should somehow be equal to block, where I think its more a case that block is as much an evasion mechanic as an armour one, and if you can block then theres no reason you cant go block. Acro is there for those that cant block and its deficiencies compared to block are because the sort of builds that cant block shouldnt have access to something comparable to block in the same fashion.



And yes, as a result acrobatics melee should theoretically be a niche thing. Melee can block, theres block on the ranger sword nodes, in her start, theres independent block clusters, she can travel to the duelist and get more block there. If a melee choses acro theyre saying ok, Im not willing to invest all the points or points+gear it takes to get high block + spell block, but im gonna put 5 points in to get this blocklite option. Much bigger bang for the buck on a low investment, but ultimately its got a much lower ceiling. In order to raise dodge to the levels of 75/75 block takes a ton of items etc because its balanced around ranged and if you want that 75/75 as a melee, better off just investing in the real thing, block, that has a balanced investment tailored around being melee.

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Fruz wrote:

But you do understand that this is likely intended ( evasion already fits ranged play-style more than armour imo ), and that acrobatic melee are a niche thing, right ?
I think that this was Snorkle's point.

I do, pointed it out in my first post.
My point is that this way evasion melees are penalized with no reliable options left. As acro is, naturally and intuitively, what block is for the "strength based" chars. Thematically and as location on the skill tree. Unsatisfying for melees.

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torturo wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

But you do understand that this is likely intended ( evasion already fits ranged play-style more than armour imo ), and that acrobatic melee are a niche thing, right ?
I think that this was Snorkle's point.

I do, pointed it out in my first post.
My point is that this way evasion melees are penalized with no reliable options left. As acro is, naturally and intuitively, what block is for the "strength based" chars. Thematically and as location on the skill tree. Unsatisfying for melees.

I dont think it is, what about block says its for strength based characters?

Precise Interception, Aspect of the Panther, Weapon Artistry, thats 3 block nodes in the rangers starting area, Swagger and Brutal Blade are also in the rangers wedge.

If you look at the larger ranger wedge of the tree between the lines that join up to the middle where the scion is, Precise Interception, Weapon Artistry and Brutal Blade give a combined total of 9% block with shields, if you go Aspect of the Panther instead you get 8% block while dual wielding.

The marauder has a total of 6% block with shields in his wedge of the tree. Theres more block in the ranger area than the marauder area.

colossal tower shield has 23% block, a pinnacle tower has 25%

crusader buckler has 26% block, imperial buckler has 25% block

those are the 2 highest base shields for evasion and armour.

Acro isnt block for evasion builds, block is block for evasion builds, acro is block for ranged builds.