General Discussion - On the definition of botting. - Forum

" Slaanesh69 wrote: Just tears in the rain about all this bullshit. Yeah, I agree the trading situation is total crap right now. And it's GGG's fault for not implementing a smoother system by which to trade. I don't fault GGG for nixing ideas of an auction house, but I do fault them for adding APIs for people like xyz to implement poe.trade, but then not making those individual trades more streamlined. I mean, seriously, stop what you're doing to PM back and forth, go to someone's hideout, initiate a trade, move items around, and accept the transaction, then go back to what we're doing? Trade is total crap for an ARPG in 2017. Make everything automated in individual trades except for the confirmation to perform it. But no, GGG hasn't bothered. They just let the situation get worse while at the same time opening up more to 3rd parties like poe.trade. ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▒▒▒▒░░░░░ cipher_nemo ░░░░░▒▒▒▒ │ Waggro Level: ♠○○○○ │ 1244 ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀	Posted by cipher_nemo on Jun 21, 2017, 12:04:24 PM Quote this Post
" cipher_nemo wrote: OP, I'll respond to your question in a way that probably GGG nor anyone else from the community will respond. Because everyone is paranoid about the ban-hammer, and GGG has strict policies in regards to macros, even though they've opened up some of their server info with APIs. While it's all a gray area when you dive into the details, the overall sentiments behind this sort of thing speak for themselves. I'd give you some general advice... 1.) Whatever you do on your system is pretty much your own business, but how your system interacts with the PoE client is GGG's business. While there are policies against macroing (doing more than one action with one keystroke), people still unethically get around detection. I'd advise you to be ethical and abide by GGG policies, but at the same time, your keyboard, mouse, and computer is your own business. What you propose goes beyond that realm of macros and into scripts, which is much more of an obvious violation, but not applicable to gameplay since it's purely trading. Botters don't ask for permission, while those who want to follow the rules, value their account, and play fairly do ask, so at least you're asking about it. In other words, you can have a script do whatever you want on your own system (scrape web pages, scrape poe.trade data, etc.), but when you have it interacting with the client, that's probably where it crosses the line. If you're just reading data from the client (logs or screen caps), that's more of your business, but if you're using it to activate a command in the client, that's GGG's business. 2.) GGG will punish those who abuse their interaction with the game to gain an "unfair advantage" over others. That's GGG's justification for this. So does your own script/trade bot give you an "unfair advantage" over others? Yes, I think it does, even if that unfair advantage is in trading only, not actual gameplay. So if you pursue this, it's at your own risk of getting your account banned. 3.) I'm not condoning this, and I do NOT do this, but it seems to me that there's no safeguard in place for people to test this sort of process on disposable GGG user accounts. Perhaps GGG has a way to track down and punish obvious abusers, but not sure where they draw the line for the more casual abusers with one or a small number of disposable accounts to do what your propose? This goes into the realm of multi-boxing as well. I'm sure the unethical botters use this at a much larger scale, and probably employ proxies during that process. Only GGG knows the extent of this and how they punish/ban those accounts. Thank you for taking the time to provide a very detailed and articulate response. I'm very sure you underestimate the scope of what I was proposing if you re-read my ideas, because basic scripting and macro-ing, and pulling data from poe.trade instead of the Javascript objects straight from the poe web servers is vastly different. What almost would make it fair, is that I live in the bloody middle of no-where, damn near equidistant(equilag? new word!) from every gateway here in the US, and I proposed publishing the source code with a GPL or BSD license instead of monetizing it or keeping it a secret. I suppose I have a hard time separating natural biological advantages, where the lines are drawn etc. I have no issues with letting GGG know what IP block I use, and would ask them to tell me to stop doing something if I cross a line. In your opinion would copy/paste from POE.trade with a multi monitor system cross that line? If so, Why would a custom remote KVM solution do so? And yea, those willing to wax philosophical about the trading situation says volumes. Quite frankly I'm ok with how it is. If they add an "action house" the RNG would have to be even more punishing for everything, and that would not go over well with the SSF guys(myself included). Hopefully a GGG manager will at least weigh in on this, It would codify what we can and an not do. Granted 'unethical people' for various values of ethical will do whatever anyway. Thanks for your time and putting up with my rambling, It has been one of those days. James	Posted by LucidLem on Jun 21, 2017, 6:17:20 PM Quote this Post
" LucidLem wrote: In your opinion would copy/paste from POE.trade with a multi monitor system cross that line? If so, Why would a custom remote KVM solution do so? You can copy and paste whatever you like into an in-game chat message, whether it's a PM or on global, trade, guild, whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. And you can even have your own script locally to generate that copy and paste and send it in one press of a button. The only violation of GGG's policies I see there is either automating it (without you physically being in front of the client), or if you use it to spam those messages. IOW, I personally see no issue with a macro to press one key for every step of the trade, because it's one action. GGG may or may not see otherwise. But this would abide by their one action per macro. But if you script the entire process, that would be a violation of their policy. Keep in mind there's probably nothing stopping you from doing that other than your own ethical justification either way, and GGG is hard pressed to detect casual scripting. Furthermore, it's the cheaters, goldfarmers, and botters who severely circumvent PoE that GGG is really more interested in. Still, who knows. The fact that you've asked about this on the forums, may be GGG has a secret task force that will now be watching your account a littler closer? lol. Regardless of conspiracy theory buy-in, I'd say 1.) do what you think is right, 2.) don't abuse the client, 3.) don't script more than one action per keypress, and more importantly, 4.) don't expect a black & white answer from GGG because they're extremely reluctant to talk about this sort of stuff. " LucidLem wrote: Granted 'unethical people' for various values of ethical will do whatever anyway. Indeed. And even an extension to that: ethics is not universal, and what is ethical to one person or one group within society is not ethical to another. " LucidLem wrote: Thanks for your time and putting up with my rambling, It has been one of those days. James Any time. :-) ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▒▒▒▒░░░░░ cipher_nemo ░░░░░▒▒▒▒ │ Waggro Level: ♠○○○○ │ 1244 ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ Last edited by cipher_nemo on Jun 21, 2017, 6:43:33 PM	Posted by cipher_nemo on Jun 21, 2017, 6:42:51 PM Quote this Post