On the definition of botting.

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k1rage wrote:
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Shagsbeard wrote:
That's why I specified "this game".


yeah but people pay real money for stuff in this game as well

its just not within the rules


Thus the entire purpose of this thread. I have a "certain set of skills" that I can use that seem to follow the rules, Lets face it time == money. If I can open that software up (damn near everything I do is GPL or BSD licensed.) Perhaps it would even the playing ground at least a bit.

*edited for clarity.
Last edited by LucidLem on Jun 20, 2017, 4:49:27 PM
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Elhazzared wrote:
Things like this amoung others are why I believe there should be a market.

People will put their tinfoil hats and say, oh the prices on cheap items will go down to basicly nothing and prices on expensive items will only go up.

I say nonsense! The existent of a proper marketplace where you can put sellout orders and buyout orders will not do anything like this at all.

Currency flipping already exists to extreme levels. The thing is, currency flipping in always in the hands of a very small percentage.

A market would only do 2 things. It would allow more people to do this, thus introducing more competition to the market (not that it would actually lower the prices or deal with bots) and it would allow some people that don't even practice flipping to ocasionally get the itemn they want at a lower price.

Of course, this would be very inconvinient to the small percentage of large scale market flippers, so they always speak about how it would ruin the market and because many of them are known to play the game well people will listen to their words like it's gospel and gather support against the things that would make the game better.

Actually adding a marketplace would do another thing.

It would make trading convinient to everyone, in a game where trading is a major part of it.



Adding a market would do one thing: easy p2p trade
This opens the hellgates for botters and programmers.
The next weeks you have super Inflation and some weeks after that nobody will play the league because it is like our live stock markets with realtime changes and bubbles and crashes. Just watch like every MMO and why they fail after such a short time.
That is why ggg will never go for automated trading.
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Shagsbeard wrote:
I don't understand why you would go to all that trouble. The stuff in this game is valueless.


Yes, you do understand, good, old Shags. Because it enhances his enjoyment of the game? This is a media product, designed to entertain us. People will always seek out their ways of enhancing said product. Some plays HC. Others play SSF. Others try to perfect their trading. While others again, start playing SC because of the lab.

We adapt. We develop. We try our best to seek more "fun", in our own, personal, subjective little bubble.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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LucidLem wrote:
I don’t know if this would go into General or somewhere so let’s start here.

Say I was going to setup a daemon on one of my networks that was a custom real time “indexer” (The trade API is pretty simple). Could I program it to send me a message(via whatever comms channel oob) and copy paste the appropriate trade request to my windows clipboard upon evaluation and analysis of said downloaded data?

Technically At this point I would still only be using the trade API, and have to type in ENTER, CTRL-V, ENTER to send a trade request, It would just be faster than poe.trade.

Now to take that to the next level, Say I am out of the office(home office), and my server pops up a notification on my phone that a favorable trade is available. And I want to respond with a message that I will take the trade in XX minutes via a simple android app or website. Could said program communicate with a custom HID interface? This is a grey area I know, but all it does is combine the aforementioned trade notifications with a custom Remote KVM solution, I am _still_ the one controlling the HIDs directly.

I assume the line is crossed when our software directly interacts with the client software, or is used for something more complex like levelling a pc.

On a side note, I know all of the above would be considered horribly unfair to many, If you think so, please speak up, but I am wondering if it is even allowed. The ToS is pretty vague.

Thanks for your time,
James

There's the old chestnut about "If you have to ask..."

Personally I'm seeing your next-level example as: Unless the message you're sending is to their forum or reddit account or whatever then you're talking to a player in-game without being in-game yourself and that seems kinda hinky.

Though I'm also thinking: You're asking a player with a favourable trade to wait? Good luck getting to them before someone else already in-game does.

In the end though, we know poe.trade has that Live Search 'tone' function which seems okay and your daemon seems like much the same deal, so that part should be fine.
"Let those with infinite free time pave the road with their corpses." - reboticon
"
LucidLem wrote:
I don’t know if this would go into General or somewhere so let’s start here.

Say I was going to setup a daemon on one of my networks that was a custom real time “indexer” (The trade API is pretty simple). Could I program it to send me a message(via whatever comms channel oob) and copy paste the appropriate trade request to my windows clipboard upon evaluation and analysis of said downloaded data?

Technically At this point I would still only be using the trade API, and have to type in ENTER, CTRL-V, ENTER to send a trade request, It would just be faster than poe.trade.



This is being done already & aside from automating the sending the whispers there's no way it could be considered bannable since it's all outside the game, you are just interacting with the trade API. Pretty sure people have automated the whispering part as well, that should be considered a no no.
"You want it to be one way, but it's the other way"
Last edited by MarloStanfield on Jun 21, 2017, 6:31:50 AM
"
"
LucidLem wrote:
I don’t know if this would go into General or somewhere so let’s start here.

Say I was going to setup a daemon on one of my networks that was a custom real time “indexer” (The trade API is pretty simple). Could I program it to send me a message(via whatever comms channel oob) and copy paste the appropriate trade request to my windows clipboard upon evaluation and analysis of said downloaded data?

Technically At this point I would still only be using the trade API, and have to type in ENTER, CTRL-V, ENTER to send a trade request, It would just be faster than poe.trade.



This is being done already & aside from automating the sending the whispers there's no way it could be considered bannable since it's all outside the game, you are just interacting with the trade API. Pretty sure people have automated the whispering part as well, that should be considered a no no.


I only ask because I have a spare windows compatible HID micro-controller and it would be almost trivial to tack it on to a remote interface. That is the grey area I was getting at, I would still be directing the Windows instance at home manually, just remotely and not sitting at my desk. That is what I was asking, hoping someone had a similar setup.

And yea, I meant favorable to myself or my wif/daughter/friends via whatever criteria I setup my search for, I'm not looking to turn it into a stock market tracker, although...

Guess I need to contact GGG. Thanks all.
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Phrazz wrote:
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Shagsbeard wrote:
I don't understand why you would go to all that trouble. The stuff in this game is valueless.


Yes, you do understand, good, old Shags. Because it enhances his enjoyment of the game? This is a media product, designed to entertain us. People will always seek out their ways of enhancing said product. Some plays HC. Others play SSF. Others try to perfect their trading. While others again, start playing SC because of the lab.

We adapt. We develop. We try our best to seek more "fun", in our own, personal, subjective little bubble.


Pretty much, I still remember line-defs and side-defs from DooM, and more pertinently making my own nethack diffs. Games these days don't come with editors because a vast majority will cheat. Well, that and the art assets wayyyyyy outweigh the engine in dev costs.
people creating programs that give trade recommendations already happened and is bad. but it's only symptoms.

the cause is ggg opening their trade api for people who don't program for publicly usable tools.
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
OP, I'll respond to your question in a way that probably GGG nor anyone else from the community will respond. Because everyone is paranoid about the ban-hammer, and GGG has strict policies in regards to macros, even though they've opened up some of their server info with APIs. While it's all a gray area when you dive into the details, the overall sentiments behind this sort of thing speak for themselves.

I'd give you some general advice...

1.) Whatever you do on your system is pretty much your own business, but how your system interacts with the PoE client is GGG's business. While there are policies against macroing (doing more than one action with one keystroke), people still unethically get around detection. I'd advise you to be ethical and abide by GGG policies, but at the same time, your keyboard, mouse, and computer is your own business. What you propose goes beyond that realm of macros and into scripts, which is much more of an obvious violation, but not applicable to gameplay since it's purely trading. Botters don't ask for permission, while those who want to follow the rules, value their account, and play fairly do ask, so at least you're asking about it. In other words, you can have a script do whatever you want on your own system (scrape web pages, scrape poe.trade data, etc.), but when you have it interacting with the client, that's probably where it crosses the line. If you're just reading data from the client (logs or screen caps), that's more of your business, but if you're using it to activate a command in the client, that's GGG's business.

2.) GGG will punish those who abuse their interaction with the game to gain an "unfair advantage" over others. That's GGG's justification for this. So does your own script/trade bot give you an "unfair advantage" over others? Yes, I think it does, even if that unfair advantage is in trading only, not actual gameplay. So if you pursue this, it's at your own risk of getting your account banned.

3.) I'm not condoning this, and I do NOT do this, but it seems to me that there's no safeguard in place for people to test this sort of process on disposable GGG user accounts. Perhaps GGG has a way to track down and punish obvious abusers, but not sure where they draw the line for the more casual abusers with one or a small number of disposable accounts to do what your propose? This goes into the realm of multi-boxing as well. I'm sure the unethical botters use this at a much larger scale, and probably employ proxies during that process. Only GGG knows the extent of this and how they punish/ban those accounts.
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I am going to throw in the towel now, I am done. I have railed against the Path of Trading aspect of this game that is completely fucking up my favorite goddamn RPG!!!!ONE!!!! of all time.

But it is evident that this trade aspect is being fertilized and reaped in all it's corrupted, self-serving, manipulating glory.

External trade applications? For crying out loud.......

Yeah, I have nothing to add to your thread. Just tears in the rain about all this bullshit.

Last edited by Slaanesh69 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:58:49 AM

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