LOL cops in venezuela robbing ppls This is socialisms end game cant even pay enforcers..

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morbo wrote:

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finisterre wrote:

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morbo wrote:

keep a population limit by force.

Is there any resources that proves the growth of population has no limit, or no way to feed current world population ?

What is the theoretical (physical) limit of Earth sustainability is irrelevant. If you want to achieve certain goals, you have to make compromises:

1.) you can have an ever growing world population
2.) or you can have an environment that is not polluted, destroyed and pillaged
3.) or you can have no poverty

Pick one.

Unlimited population brings poverty and destruction of the ecosystem, as tribes / countries / coalitions compete for power and resources. War is the main culling tool.

You could solve world poverty (aka "inequality"), but not without extracting every bit of natural resources and/or put severe limits on population growth, which requires an authoritarian regime.

You can have an environment that is not pillaged of resources, not polluted and destroyed, but not if you want "every child on the planet to own a laptop" and every teen having a car and every family being in the "middle class".

You can't have it all, so decide which is more important to you.

I assume you are basing on the abandoned model of the population growth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIoW-Vb5drI

Developed countries are not "clean" since they heavily relying on developing countries and poverty is not solved by standardization. Authoritarian regime; bureaucracy can go wrong.

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In short: welcome to socialism.

Please don't forget that there are people behind the political situation. (and stop it ! I'm not hooked on red baits xD)

Cops robing people is a problem in many counties

on my trip to Europe several people in my group got robbed by police in the Czech republic

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You really think this? That our current progress is the result of the maltreatment of slaves?

where did I say this? not rly sure how this bit relates to anything I said.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Of course it matters! Somebody is going to claim responsibility for putting the robots there, and why wouldn't they — it's not like robots just naturally grow from robot seeds, they're difficult to make — by which I mean, intellectually difficult to design. Do you think the people responsible for their creation would simply let everyone forget that

who said no one would claim responsibility or be compensated?

I said it doesnt matter who owns them, because it doesnt. Fact is that they are going to exist. Have you looked at the world lately? Have you seen the amount of jobs lost to mechanisation? We are struggling to make up enough unnecessary shit for people to do in order to keep capitalism afloat in the west already. Were sticking middle men in between middle men in processes where you increasingly dont need any middle men just because we need to create jobs to keep our model going, to keep our model wealth distribution working.

I didnt say it wont have consequences, I said it doesnt matter. It will happen regardless, were up to our eyeballs in the worship of capitalism atm and guess what? Its eating itself, it doesnt even take anti capitalist views to become some kind of communist religion that everyone buys in to. Even within our model it makes financial sense to replace people with machines, its happening everywhere, you cant halt technology and efficiency. Capitalism in the way we have it now will follow its own destruction all the way to the bitter end. Maybe these machines end up privately owned, maybe they end up publically owned, it doesnt matter, what matters is the machines will be made, are being made even as we speak, are replacing human jobs right now, will continue to do so and we will be forced to completely reconstruct how we distribute wealth and govern ourselves in the face of humans in the workplace becoming an increasingly redundant concept.

All the rest of it, the "but communism sucks and it didnt work in X country X amount of years ago" and "but if private companies own them then bad people we control us all" and "if x, y and z happens then we will live in a right wing nightmare"... none of that matters, none of that sort of theory in the minds of people living in our current model is going to halt technology and keep us locked in a place where humans do work that machines can do 10x better, faster, more precisely. It will happen and we will have to adapt.

Go down to your local supermarket, use the self service checkouts while you buy canned goods that were sorted, quality checked, tinned and packaged by machines, then wonder to yourself why you are not being served by a human checkout person and buying products hand sorted and hand tinned when surely by making the people who were doing that in the past unemployed we are leading ourselves into some kind of impossible communist dystopia you find repulsive? The answer is that the real world doesnt give a shit about your politics, my politics, it doesnt care if communist russia was a shit show, the machines make sense and that is all that matters, thats why its happening.

Then look at how much you go shopping now and how much you just buy online. You cut out the entire store, these national networks of driving goods to shops, shelving them, selling them, human resources, building buildings, maintenance, the entire thing is being eaten away by the very machine you are sitting in front of reading this. Ordering goods from amazon, but at least theres still a human needing to deliver the goods to your door right? Right? Thats a safe job surely never going to be replaced by a robot... 100,000s of jobs that no one really wants to do, gone, and replaced by some guys designing and maintaining websites. The backend of the retail distribution chain will still exist, the central warehousing. You ever seen the inside of a central retail warehouse? I used to work in one when I left school doing stock control, there was maybe 30 guys in goods in/stock control/pick control then 100s working as pickers, forklift drivers etc. You know how many of those guys youre gonna need to run that place as machines get more advanced? 30 guys in goods in/stock control/pick control. Take about 95% of the jobs in that place and say goodbye to them, because theyre going and the very capitalist model that we live in which will be rocked to its foundations by these sort of changes is the same one that will ensure they happen.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Do you actually think no wars, neither literally nor figuratively, would be fought over who controls the means of production?

With more excess population, and less population needed to maintain production, doesn't that mean that there's many more expendable lives one can toss into the meatgrinder of war? "Leisure," you say; for some, perhaps.

Yeah sure snorkle, no one in the entire world is a psychopath, everyone is full of selfless virtue, and exerting control over others will become a thing of the past.

I think you have a bit of a bleak view of things that I personally dont think is realistic.

In my house there are taps, I turn them, water comes out. Who owns the pumps, the pipes etc? I dont even know, I dont know if its private or public. If I went to the government and claimed unemployment benefits, I could still easily afford to pay for that water. How many fights have happened in my house over who gets the water? None. How many people in my country are fighting over who owns the water and the means of producing the water? No one. How many people are going thirsty and dying because they cant get any water? No one.

Crazy people can be violent because theyre crazy, sure. Fights can happen for no reason at all. This is individuals doing individual crazy things. No ones going to organise a civil war over water in the uk because its meaningless, the ability to produce and distribute it is so easy with our current level of technology that its not an issue. It takes an insignificant amount of people and resources to make sure everyone can have water, theres drinking fountains in public where anyone can just walk up and drink enough free, clean water to make themselves sick any time they want. Virtually no one cares who owns that infrastructure, No commie hating right wing idealists stopped the mechanisation of the processes that changed our country from people with big pots carrying water from a natural source at some point in the distant past to what we have now because of their political agenda. Where in some distant past people probably fought over sources of fresh water, used water to control people, now no one gives a shit mate. Im not worried about what water some millionaire is drinking, I have all the water I need on tap, its not a cause of issue between me and people richer or poorer than myself.

Got nothing to do with equality politics, left wing/right wing, its about inevitable technology providing abundance and the world adapting to that situation. The entire way you think "oh theres people not needed for the capitalist machine, that means theyre going to be used for the WAR MACHINE!!!" is imo going to be more and more a relic.

you dont like global government? Guess what? We dont rly get a say mate. Look at brexit, we voted our of the eu, out of centralised control, guess what? Its already a complete shitshow, the amount of problems its creating with business, with borders, this fortified isolated national state idea increasingly doesnt work. Its pushing jam up a hill, path of most resistance, inefficient. The trend is towards central control because it makes sense, more and more we have the technology to enable central control in ways we couldnt have before. Who voted for brexit? Mainly old people, mainly scared people, mainly the lower tiers of education.

It doesnt matter if you are worried about global government, or me, Ive seen all the alex jones docs ranting about the bilderbergers and the global elites too, Ive seen all the sci fi movies, Ive seen the history of previous empires rise and fall. It doesnt matter though what we want, what we are afraid of, Im not trying to sell you on some left wing robot future where everything is roses and we all take up knitting classes. I dont have to sell you on it, I dont even have to want it, global government is coming. Things like brexit are the spiteful lashouts of a dying way of thinking. The trends are towards global integration, decade by decade we get closer and closer, were rolling down a hill. The machines are getting more and more powerful.

How does a global government look? Who owns the machines? how much blood is there between here and there? How many decades? We dont know, but were going to find out because its happening, open your eyes and you will see its wheels in motion all around you.

I would say dont be afraid, because most people ARE inherently good. The more countries develop the better the education gets, the less kids they have, the less religion they have, the less fighting and violence they have. I have faith that we will find a way to adapt to the inevitable future and it will be far better than how we live now. If you dont then get yourself a supply of nightmare nappies, because its coming and none of us can stop it no matter how much we sit around and say "lol, communism, it doesnt work."

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morbo wrote:

Your plan of a "global government" requires to rob those who are ahead and give to those who are behind. Developed, high IQ regions like China & the West, are supposed to gimp themselves in favor of underdeveloped low-IQ regions like Africa, who also breed much faster. Why would the productive, hard-working people want to do that?

rob them of what? gimp themselves in what way?

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morbo wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It is only those who follow the false god of equality of outcome who could possibly believe that conditions worldwide could ever share such fundamental sameness that the same system would be ideal for all. We are not all the same. We have important differences. That is what true diversity is.

Yeah. If you magically re-distributed all the money, so that everyone would have the same, if you forced everyone to be an atheist (or Muslim or whatever), if you erased cultures and nationalities, if you mixed up all the genes to make a single boring human version... Society would still derail from this global utopia, because evolutionary competition would work its magic, regardless of how equal everybody's starting point was.

To get "equality" you'd actuality have to kill the human spirit (Brave new world, style or something like that). But then it wouldn't be humanity anymore, but some Borg-like ant-colony species.

If you had this robot-powered society, where no one would need to work, it is a failed assumption to think that everyone would then just do arts, philosophy, write books and plant trees. Some would do that and some would prefer to spend their time on warfare and conquest in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And then we are back at evolutionary competition.

I wish you would post more insightful comments like this. But i do have a few minor nitpickings with it.

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morbo wrote:

And then we are back at evolutionary competition.

Competition will exist within whatever system is in place. The key is to design a system whereby this competition is channeled into things which benefit society.
Money is like electricity in a circuit. You set your components in place to intelligently leverage the current seeking ground. What we need is a sanity check on each and every means of gaining money to insure that such actions benefit the whole. Money needs to be immutably linked in such a way.

But more fundamentally, 'benefit to society' needs to be properly defined and marketed to the masses. I suggest the maximization of the sum future freedom of action for all intelligent agents capable of mutual cooperation. Viewing right and wrong through the lens of empowerment is a far better method than simply defining a million individual actions as wrong.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

morbo wrote:

Your plan of a "global government" requires to rob those who are ahead and give to those who are behind. Developed, high IQ regions like China & the West, are supposed to gimp themselves in favor of underdeveloped low-IQ regions like Africa, who also breed much faster. Why would the productive, hard-working people want to do that?

rob them of what? gimp themselves in what way?

Rob them of resources, know-how, advantage, money, time... Gimping their own country, by trying to feed foreign populations whose breeding is out of control.

A global government means global welfare. Even in case of high mechanization, it means that a minority of smart, productive people (who have less children), will have to feed a majority of low IQ, unproductive people (whose numbers will explode). A minority will bear all the responsibility, while the majority will bear no responsibility. Such system is unstable, even in a homogenized society, let alone in a diverse global society with "obstacles" like: culture, religion, ideology, race...

Why would the minority spend their time and effort, producing more low-IQ people in Africa and the middle east, instead of investing money into your own people and space exploration? How do you picture a democratic global government, where the majority of voters are low-IQ unemployed people? It can't work, or it can't be democratic. But then authoritarianism inevitably brings limits on your freedoms.

Socialist systems have been struggling with supplying even the most basic needs to its citizens, like food & electricity. Because siting on your ass and relying on other people's labor is very inefficient. Most people won't work hard for some unknown 3rd party, they will only work hard for themselves and their immediate family. Your assumptions disregard the very important step of who will design and build all that automation? Will it keep up with the ever growing populations in the 3rd world? I just don't see the socialist system, which struggles even at feeding people, being able to fill out the whole human needs pyramid and bring us into an automated, post scarcity future.

And politics are not as irrelevant as you say. Politics will actually decide if the future will be peaceful, a civil war mess or a nuclear holocaust that will regress humanity a few centuries or even millenia back. Politics will decide if your country will be still liberal and humanitarian in 50 years, or a radically islamized warzone. Assuming most people are "good" might be ok (tho it's debatable, because "good" is relative to ideology, culture, religion...), but it doesn't mean they have the same goals.

@morbo

http://gojo.co/manifesto/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfinance

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finisterre wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfinance

Ok, but do you know why people want to come to places like USA, besides because it offers more opportunity? It's because you can be sure that your company won't be simply seized, after you've invested 10 years of work into it. Something that you can't be sure in left-wing south America or dictatorial African countries. You never know when some revolution will burn down your shop or the government simply freeze your assets, because they've ran out of others people's money.

That's why foreign companies won't invest into Venezuela, because you can't trust the loons in power, but you also can't trust the general "revolutionary" & "counterrevolutionary" culture there.

If you want to invest into the 3rd world or give to charity, that's ok, it should be your personal voluntary decision. What I do not support is the government taking my taxes and giving them away at government's own discretion. That's almost guaranteed to be a waste of money. The only governmental foreign aid I support is immediate relief aid after natural catastrophes. Every other help should only happen at the discretion of private citizens.

If most people are naturally good, as some assume, they will help on their own, without the gov having to extort money from them.

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morbo wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Your plan of a "global government" requires to rob those who are ahead and give to those who are behind. Developed, high IQ regions like China & the West, are supposed to gimp themselves in favor of underdeveloped low-IQ regions like Africa, who also breed much faster. Why would the productive, hard-working people want to do that?

rob them of what? gimp themselves in what way?

Rob them of resources, know-how, advantage, money, time... Gimping their own country, by trying to feed foreign populations whose breeding is out of control.

youre presuming peoples breeding will stay out of control. Youre talking about countries and foreign people while talking about a global government, talking about advantage between countries, thats not really relevant.

England used to be divided up into kingdoms that competed, and then it became a unified country with a single government and now different areas of England dont need to compete or have advantage over each other. Information, technology, resources etc are shared across the country, there are no wars between this part and that part. That would have been impossible at a certain point because the technology to rule the entire country wasnt there, and then when it was it may have seemed impossible because how do you stop people waring? How is this kingdom ever going to just give up all its shit and share with this other poorer kingdom, it doesnt make sense, everyone is greedy and warlike so its impossible... and then it happened because it made logical sense to happen. All that other shit just got swept aside, rendered meaningless. None of it mattered because as sure as people made friends and then groups and then tribes and then kingdoms with bigger and bigger unified countries... coming together makes sense, we are more capable together, this process does not respect the politics of the individual or the limitations of the collective politics of the day, it happens and then the politics adapts to the reality of it because in practice the logic of it wins out.

Today these 2 kings dont get along, this rich resourceful king will never prop up this other lazy, poor king. Tomorrow there are new kings, the day after there are no kings and in their place 2 politicians from the same party are being democratically elected in these 2 areas. The day after that their powers are being eroded by a far less democratic entity like the eu. As long as peoples lives keep getting better then it happens, individuals may have loved one king, and then the next king, and then their democracy, willing to fight and die for them. These people get old, die, get outvoiced by the next generation, grow tired of idealism, things change.


Rob them of know-how, that is not a finite resource, sharing information is not hard, it doesnt deplete what you know to tell someone else. Money is a fabrication, its a means of distributing the right to products, if youre not dealing with a scarcity of those products, if theres enough product for everyone then there will be enough money for everyone to have them. the money is irrelevant, the product is what matters.


Physical resources, where do all the metals and oils needed to make japans tech come from? Places like africa and the middle east, I think youll find robbing physical resources is more often going in the other direction.

I think more and more areas will be gimping themselves by not being bonded with other areas, by not sharing information, by having to compete in areas that are not actually producing benefits to their society. It doesnt help one city in england if another one is failing, falling behind, quite the opposite.



Look at a character like steve jobs. Guy was balls deep in making tech, surely for power and money right? to better himself and his family? He got the point where he had so much money that he and all his familly and close friends would never have to work again, and the got desperately ill, so what did he do? He kept working on technology, against all your presumptions about how mercenary and selfish human beings are he kept on going. When he first started to work he did so to feed himself and his family no doubt, when he was in need he did what he needed to do for self preservation, but when he had more than he could ever need, more than he could ever spend, he kept going.

It is a myth that human beings are only motivated by direct selfishness, personal financial gain, its bullshit sold to us by mentally ill people for whom its personally true and on a larger scale profitable to pretend is universal. Theres a lot of people in businesses like finance, people who make money go round, whos drive is money, these people are not necessary, theyre a means to an end. the necessary people are the brilliant people who make the tech that the money men trade stocks and shares in, those are the people who make the machines. Creative people create. John Carmac, Id software, made enough money to never need to work another day and then... just keeps going, rockets, vr, he could have just shut up shop after quake 3 and said fuck the world Im gonna jerk off all day with my millions. Nope.

The jobs in danger are, for the most, shitty jobs, most jobs. Im a graphic designer, a robot will not replace my job, a robot will not replace product designers, software designers, artists, teachers, politicians etc, they will empower them but not replace them, certainly not in the foreseeable future anyway. These are fields where you take away that financial drive and guess what? People still do them. Look at the music industry, it went from big big money to a place where less than 1% of the people making music are earning enough to live off it, and yet the music keeps coming, more people than ever are making it and putting it out there.

Take the need or the ability to make money from a robotic, soulless jobs like stacking shelves, working factory lines etc and yes, vast numbers of people will just stop doing them. This is not universal to all work, it mostly applies to the sort of jobs that robots can and will do better or jobs that will just become irrelevant as societies model changes to accommodate all this.





Like I said, Im not selling you a dream here, Im not explaining my ideal society that I want to happen. Im looking at what IS happening and where its going. You talk about democracy and limiting freedoms, the eu is a far less democratic thing than we have here in the uk by ourselves, and yet most young people want the eu, even if you reran the brexit vote tomorrow we would vote to stay in the eu now people have seen the reality of it. Its not that we cant cope on our own, far from it, but its just better if we dont try to. The people dont care about the idealism of the thing when it comes down to it, they care about the reality of their ever day lives. The more humanity has centralised control the less power and freedoms the individual has theoretically had, but in practice the more empowered, educated and capable their every day lives have got because of the security and abundance created by the whole.

Central power is inevitable, technology replacing manual labour is inevitable, the models that you seem to think are infallible cannot survive this change but ultimately the mass of people will embrace the models that adapt to it because it will make their lives better. Path of least resistance.

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morbo wrote:

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finisterre wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfinance

Ok, but do you know why people want to come to places like USA, besides because it offers more opportunity? It's because you can be sure that your company won't be simply seized, after you've invested 10 years of work into it. Something that you can't be sure in left-wing south America or dictatorial African countries. You never know when some revolution will burn down your shop or the government simply freeze your assets, because they've ran out of others people's money.

That's why foreign companies won't invest into Venezuela, because you can't trust the loons in power, but you also can't trust the general "revolutionary" & "counterrevolutionary" culture there.

If you want to invest into the 3rd world or give to charity, that's ok, it should be your personal voluntary decision. What I do not support is the government taking my taxes and giving them away at government's own discretion. That's almost guaranteed to be a waste of money. The only governmental foreign aid I support is immediate relief aid after natural catastrophes. Every other help should only happen at the discretion of private citizens.

If most people are naturally good, as some assume, they will help on their own, without the gov having to extort money from them.

To face those fears (for me) you described, I have to start with where those fears come from.

That's trust and hope.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

youre presuming peoples breeding will stay out of control

I'm talking about the process of how you supposedly go from current out of control breeding, to a stable system where everyone has "enough" and the population growth stabilizes.

Talking about UK, yeah the country was unified with the sword, but inside you still have unequal wealth and power distribution. "Equality" was not even achieved on this micro level, but you expect it to materialize on the global level? And now you are fking yourselves over with immigration from vastly more different cultural and ideological places, because of this blind faith into the ideology of equality. In the future UK might actually break apart, not come together more. Same for EU & US.

Yes, people are individualist, they mostly care about themselves and their family. they will only work hard for their family, that's why socialism never brought prosperity to a country. People don't want to work for their lazy ass neighbors. People also care about their tribe, nation, ethnicity, religion, culture and race. If you want "equality", you will have to first defeat all the differences that make humans unique. Kinda dystopian.

Steve Jobs is your example of a "futuristic humanitarian", who doesn't work just for himself or for profits? The guy who was selling overpriced gadgets to yuppies, made from slave labour in China? The guy who founded the company which is the biggest tax evader in human history? Can't even do the bare minimum required of paying the taxes you owe? Geeez... But then you expect little guys like me to pay my share regularly and help the government feeding "poor starving 3rd worlders" whose populations are actually exploding? Or to "solve global warming" by funding corrupt governmental / globalist projects? No thanks...

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Money is a fabrication, its a means of distributing the right to products, if youre not dealing with a scarcity of those products, if theres enough product for everyone then there will be enough money for everyone to have them. the money is irrelevant, the product is what matters.

No, labor is what matters and money is just a representation of labor. You are a graphics designer, so you don't even produce things that actually feed, clothe, medicate or puts a roof over the heads of people. Would you work for almost free? Why would you then expect people who produce food, medicine, technology... to work for almost nothing. Do you think that you can feed 2 billion Africans in 2050 with a graphics designer job? What about just ten Africans, would you adopt them? Because that's what you basically need to do, if you want to bring "global equality" and "global government".

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The jobs in danger are, for the most, shitty jobs, most jobs.

Exactly right. The jobs that are most in danger, are the ones that low-IQ, low-education, low-skill people would do. Thats also exactly the same demographics which is growing the fastest. Again, how many 3rd worlders without a job, do you think you could maintain with your graphics designer job in this process to reach a "global equality" world? If X, then why not X+10, since low IQ people on welfare will breed indefinitely, until they hit some physical barrier.

I'm not interested how a SciFi utopian world of tomorrow will look like. I'm interested in how will you get there, while avoiding a thermonuclear global war?

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Physical resources, where do all the metals and oils needed to make japans tech come from? Places like africa and the middle east, I think youll find robbing physical resources is more often going in the other direction.

Those resources are paid for, not "robbed". They are paid for according to how much human & mechanical labor they need to be extracted, processed and shipped. Labor cost is relative to local economy. If you want those resources to be paid more (because "poor Africans") are you prepared to pay double or triple for your iPhone?

If you want global equality, then kiss goodbye your current lifestyle. There are several billion future jobless people, waiting to share your living space and your resources.