Life is technically better than ES

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Aim_Deep wrote:

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Nágash wrote:

I dont think ES and Life are that far away from each other in the endgame.

Off course you have app. double the "life" with ES then with life,
but I think that way was intended from the beginning. For me the "OP ES" thing
rly started with things like VaalPact and Vessel of Vinktar on ES.

Look at many of the high ES builds that dont have "instant leech".
Many of them, if you are not careful can get in big troubles fast,
espacialy in high density maps or in breaches, etc.

I honestly think you could bring "Life" and "ES" on par for most builds and
people, if you only would allow VAAL PACT for LIFE. All GGG would have to do
is bring in a line like "does not work for energy shield" on vaal pact, and
in a heartbeat many players will get in trouble playing ES builds.

That will not destroy the ES Builds nowadays, because you still will not get
oneshot, but you will not be able to facetank all the game has to offer.
You will be forced to move and get some ES back, and that should be the way
how you have to play ES characters.

No offense - its all only IMHO ;-)

this is correct. There is some ES regen builds I've seen that can tank end game but they have wicked ward and like pushing 30K ES. In otherwords expensive mirror like gear and few and far between. By in large all this ES OP stuff started with vinks and pathfinder to lessor extent. It allows "cheap" gear to tank everything so long and you can leech out of the first hit before subsequent hits come. For vinks and especially PF this is trivial to do. They should just delete that flask from game. See how well all these builds will do with 2% LL gem and/or warlords on blas. Not only will one do less DPS because no DPS LL gem is occupying a socket and or warlords aura running instead of a DPS aura the leech amount will be significantly less base (2-4%) some dodging/movment out of DOT will have to occur even with VP. SO before screwing with VP I'd like to see vinks just disappear.

I disagree with this. Not everything is tied to instant leech. ES is superior in many builds that have no leech. Those builds wouldn't be nearly as strong if they were life based.

I've played several builds that went into red maps with little to no leech in the last few leagues. Life based ones were not as successful just because you need a bigger buffer than life can provide due to insane damage scaling. Hydra fight, take balls to the face as 6k life no leech, you're dead. Take balls to the face as 12k ES no leech, you'll regen it before your next screw up. Same reason why the lab is a joke as ES but can be hard as life when you don't get flask charges in the trap phases.

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Namcap wrote:

Same reason why the lab is a joke as ES but can be hard as life when you don't get flask charges in the trap phases.

All depends... With a ton of regeneration life-based builds can sleepwalk through the traps. Different ballgame for the ever so popular VP leechers tho. ;)

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Namcap wrote:

I disagree with this. Not everything is tied to instant leech. ES is superior in many builds that have no leech. Those builds wouldn't be nearly as strong if they were life based.

I've played several builds that went into red maps with little to no leech in the last few leagues. Life based ones were not as successful just because you need a bigger buffer than life can provide due to insane damage scaling. Hydra fight, take balls to the face as 6k life no leech, you're dead. Take balls to the face as 12k ES no leech, you'll regen it before your next screw up. Same reason why the lab is a joke as ES but can be hard as life when you don't get flask charges in the trap phases.

You are completly right, I didnt say its not possible !

I played a Golemmancer, Righteous Fire and Pizza Stick Build myself the last 2 leagues.
Off course its great, but believe me, Pizza Sticks and Breaches are terrible. And even with
my Golemmancer there are situations where I would wish to have leech. But yeah, it doesnt matter because I can die and golems do the job anyway (another thing where GGG has to do something). Its all possible to do without leech and ES, but its not as easy as with instant leech and 10k+ ES.

The instant leech and ES toghether makes the hard content a joke, and that should never happen, without instant leech/high ES you still "have to play" the game, you know.

@Aim Deep
Know you from the forums and some guides and you are often "spot on", but with Vinktars I have to disagree a little. Vinktars in the state of now (one use) is only OP with Pathfinder, IMHO. Played it with other classes like Assassin and with Skyforth, but its not the same as with Pathfinder. Thats the reason why I think Pathfinder is the problem, not Vinktars. GGG allready has done something against that with the refill nerf, but with Pathfinder its still a little too strong.

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tomay wrote:

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Namcap wrote:

Same reason why the lab is a joke as ES but can be hard as life when you don't get flask charges in the trap phases.

All depends... With a ton of regeneration life-based builds can sleepwalk through the traps. Different ballgame for the ever so popular VP leechers tho. ;)

Awesome, +1

My first Uberlabfarmer was a "life-based" Earthquake Maurauder (Angry A, you remember ?).
It was a joke to do Uberlab with that "life-based" char. Tons of lifereg, bleed, poison and the armour so high that Izaro couldn`t do anything to me. :-)

Edit: And off course, my "never can die" Wurmblaster III LIfe-Char was the best of all. Thanks GGG for killing that playstyle :-(. What an awesome idea that was ! I miss it.

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Mythabril wrote:

Threads like this are why devs don't post.

Its odd though, they post on reddit. Chris wilsons account has on several occasions, dont think i have seen that here outside of an official posting.

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Nágash wrote:

Vinktars in the state of now (one use) is only OP with Pathfinder, IMHO. Played it with other classes like Assassin and with Skyforth, but its not the same as with Pathfinder. Thats the reason why I think Pathfinder is the problem, not Vinktars. GGG allready has done something against that with the refill nerf, but with Pathfinder its still a little too strong.

This would be true if fights lasted more than the flask duration, or the flask was not up in those critical moments where you need it to be. And in fights without adds that last a bit longer than the flask lasts, you can just portal out and in again. And while trash clearing, keeping up all your flasks permanently is completely trivial.

Flaskfinder is a different issue alltogether where it just completely throws out the whole "resource management" part of things, or makes it very easy to do at least.

My issue with GGG not nerfdockening the shit out of flasks, is that there is a long history of GGG nerfing the crap out of base mechanics like block, when the issue was rumi all along.
Then they change how leech works, and dont change vinktars.
Then they change AoE and make it a completely inefficient stat, and leave dying sun completely intact.
And they are going to change how bleed and poison work, and i am betting you a thousand dollars that witchfire, sins rebirth and aziris are going to be completely untouched.
And the league after that, they are probably going to nerf the crap out of ele pen, and they are going to not even look at wise oak.

Life and ES is balanced around life flasks giving you more survivability because of instant refilling of hitpoints, but actually heaving to slot a life potion is a MAJOR downside.

At any rate, i am looking forward to GGG not adressing flasks whatsoever and introducing even more broken ones, then nerfing ES and buffing life and suddenly we have 12k life berserkers completely immortal to everything and everyone is only playing that. It is going to be glorious.

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DuckYourHead321 wrote:

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Mythabril wrote:

Threads like this are why devs don't post.

Its odd though, they post on reddit. Chris wilsons account has on several occasions, dont think i have seen that here outside of an official posting.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1251376/page/25

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Cataca wrote:

At any rate, i am looking forward to GGG not adressing flasks whatsoever and introducing even more broken ones, then nerfing ES and buffing life and suddenly we have 12k life berserkers completely immortal to everything and everyone is only playing that. It is going to be glorious.

+1, loved your post, and espacialy that part ;-)

ok not hating on you 'es is better' guys, I also prefer es. But I'll post the advantages life has over es and vice versa, you can judge for yourself:

1) Life will not be cut in half if you take phase acrobatics, which gives 40% dodge/30% magic dodge. (I personally think it should be %60/50).

2) Life builds are extremely less succeptable to stun unlike ES. So life builds don't need to get chayula, valyrium, or unwavering stance. (Unless it's a juggernaut ES build then you won't need those).

3) Life builds don't need to get CI or shavronnes body armor to not die from chaos.

4) Life gear is cheaper than ES gear.

5) Life builds can use bloodmagic (and do bloodmagic maps if you got leech/regen). With bloodmagic, you don't really need to focus on mp regeneration.

6) Life can use Mind over matter, which can make you tankier. (still not worth the investment though, with all thats invested into MOM, you'll still get more survivability just investing in life.)

7) You can just pot when your life goes down to replenish, you can't just pot with ES. (Of course it can be migitated with leech/regen)

Now for the ES advantage over Life:

1) ES has the potential to be a lot higher than life thanks to gear.

2) CI makes you immune to poison/chaos, no other investment in that kind of defense needed.

3) Pain attunement makes your spells even more powerful than life builds.

4) Infused shield node gives you 15% more ES. there is nothing like that for life (This could be a part of reason number 1 above too I guess).

5) "On full life" bonuses can be abused by ES builds that don't use pain attunement.

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_Saranghaeyo_ wrote:

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Sexcalibure wrote:

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Mythabril wrote:

Threads like this are why devs don't post.

nobody forced them to said blatantly stupid stuff like this

This

Seriously, the balance devs are so out of touch with their game its retarded. Its just nerf nerf nerf and then when something actually needs a buff its "technically" better. Its honestly a joke and i have zero clue why they are even employed at this point.

They have nerfed so many 100+ & 1000+ exalt builds but yet cant see that Life is garbage as fuck night now. Its beyond mind boggling.