Everyone dishes ES, but can we take into account the obscene requirements to be "end-game" viable?

Speaking of which, when is this nerf happening? Have they set something in stone in regards to time frame yet?
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Completed 20 ChallengesAndrius319 wrote:
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Completed 21 ChallengesSnorkle_uk wrote:
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Completed 20 ChallengesAndrius319 wrote:
Imo it would be terrible if they would nerf quantities of es.
The damage spikes mobs does is just stupid. For example few days back got instagibed by some random blue bear in vinktars map (6.5k hp) and it's not even a red tier map.

How does life builds play now? they die left and right or they stack the damage so high so they can one shot everything as fast to prevent that random incoming oneshot (or invest literally everything to defenses and build can't kill stuff).

Would rather see vaal pact rebalance, life buff, monster damage rebalance.



what sort of character were you playing? Did you have any physical damage reduction?


no mitigation, it's dodge build with some evasion.



yeah thatll do it. This is your caster dude right so youre in the top of the tree? Its so hard to make an effective defense setup in the top without using es, and when you are using es most of the time hybrid and low life are second class citizens to ci right now. All 3 work, going without es all together... well mom but thats a big workaround for so much less ehp than ci. I feel like it pushes you into lightning coil, a lightning coil may well have saved you. I complained hard about the whole eb/mom/aa nerf and I said youre basically making life builds at the top coil or gtfo for a lot of builds.

This is where I have the biggest issue with ci vs life in terms of defense setups, when you are a caster in the top of the tree. All the investments like hybrid, mom etc are a bit too overbearing for what you get back compared to ci, what u gonna do? Just run around with 6k life, no defenses and get 1 shot? Thats what it ends up being for a lot of people.



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I played a 78/78 Max Block Gladiator with 13k Armour and like, i think 7k evasion, I was Formless Inferno and Perfect Form, completely decked out with +1 Anvil. Obviously ran a CWDT setup, also had trigger curses on being hit, I rolled Temporal Chains and Enfeeble, with nearly 6k life i was still entirely susceptible to being blown to shit by Volatiles in maps. While i was certainly "tanky" it did not prevent me from dying even with all the defensive investments and gear.

You throw a handful of points into energy shield, get mediocre energy shield gear and youre immediately in better standing than someone who spend most their points in life, and fully geared defensively and even used defensive skills. Its just math, its there for anyone, i know it isnt really arguable but here we are.





vol blood is bs, for sure. Ive spent years trying to hammer that point home on the forums. At first people told me I was a noob but I think by now enough people have experienced it, have seen the 9k life builds getting 1 shot in average difficulty t11 maps. Its another one of the biggest issues with life vs es, this one mechanic is basically THE 1 shot, outside of vol blood there isnt really a lot of 1 shots for properly defended builds, theyre all telegraphed "you are supposed to manually avoid this" things like the slams, the flameblasts, the DD totem beside the boss you are supposed to notice and deal with. They are changing it though, I pmed the devs about it with videos and shit and got a response saying yep, we know, its being sorted and will be coming in one of the next big updates.

I dont think the math really is on the side of a maxed out defense spend life build going up against a handfull of points into es with mediocre gear. I think the feels can be at times, that moment when you die to vol blood on a 7500 life melee and its wtf? vs your 12k es ci melee losing 10k es and going damn, thank god im ci. I think the actual math on incoming damage against mitigation favours life, the numbers go to life, its just not the extremely rare occasions that go hard to es are the ones we often care most about, like vol blood.

you posted the ehp calc, you must have posted stuff into that over time and seen the kind of results you get. If I pump one of my really tanky life builds in there and one of my really tanky ci builds, go full on, put in every defense stat including flasks I would use, mock basalt flasks with the equiv in endurance charges as they are additive % phys reductions, do the whole 9 yards I get this...



vs 10,000 damage

CI: 134,453 ehp // 14 hits to kill
Life: 233,072 ehp // 24 hits to kill


vs 4,000 damage

CI: 134,453 ehp // 34 hits to kill
Life: 1,091,389 ehp // 273 hits to kill


vs 2,000 damage

CI: 134,453 ehp // 68 hits to kill
Life: 58,910,162 ehp // 29,456 hits to kill


this thing doesnt even factor that I have non stop life regen and can use life pots on the life build, and the thing is there are a LOT of situations where that life build is immortal, you simply cannot kill him even if he stands there afk getting thumped, where my es build has to fight back, leech, move around etc. But my ci build can do that, I play it, I work the crowd, its not a problem.

The extremely rare case where it goes the other way, vol blood, I just get 1 shot on the life build and the ci can survive it, because youre looking at 6,600 life vs 15,750 es. That might happen only once every 2000 hours played, vs the other situation which is coming around virtually all the time. But its a lethal situation, the other situation is not really lethal. that life char is lvl96, and has died a whole 1 time to vol blood, but its out there and its on my mind constantly.

I think this is what ggg mean when they say life has stronger options, they dont necessarily mean it feels better than es to play and theyre not going to rebalance, they mean when you do the math on some of the things you can do with life its outstrips ci on paper and actually, in a lot of in game situations. I bet the life build Im putting into those calcs could be far outstripped by a different setup.

CI is a spellcaster defense primarily, it should be better at dealing with elemental spells, and it is. Armour/EV are attacker defenses and should be better at dealing with attacks, and clearly they are. I dont believe spells are more dangerous than attacks, but vol blood single handedly messes up my confidence in life builds even when theyre properly built. Honestly fix that mod and do something about vp vinktars facetank leech bullshit and you wouldnt even need to touch the amount of es we have imo.
Threads like this are why this game has been power creeped to hell :(
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Threads like this are why this game has been power creeped to hell :(


Um, no, not really. Power creep of player damage has been done to hell, but player defenses have almost exclusively been nerfed. Look at legacy coil, AA, cloak of defiance (which wasn't even OP to start with)....

The only reason people are saying not to nerf ES is because ES is the only thing that can possibly save you from the occasional boss one shot or nasty volatile. Life and ES are sort of (read: sort of) balanced for normalized damage like general mapping where one shots aren't likely and 75% block or dodge or etc is actually a decent estimate for damage mitigation.
Guys, I had an idea while at work.

Volatile Blood: change it so it does that REALLY obvious animation like guy in Crystal Veins, then melee characters can actually avoid it, even better, make it so, the farther you get, the less damage you take, would bring some logic into play.

Oneshot mechanics: in my opinion, we SHOULD have some oneshots, like Shaper slams, merc Malachai slams. Basically, highly telegraphed slam attacks that scream "ABORT!! ABORT!!!", and if you manage to get hit by those, you SHOULD be 1shotted for stupid amount of damage, 80k or smth, so no Life or ES build can survive it. Would make it fairer imo, rather than stack stupid amount of ES with capped res and facetank anything.
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Completed 28 ChallengesMeWhenum wrote:
player defenses have almost exclusively been nerfed.

No fucking way. It's power creep fucking everywhere.

ZO was added.
GR was added.
VP was added(!).
MoM was added.
Acrobatics was heavily buffed.
Specialty flasks (granite!) were added.
Anti-status flasks became immunity during duration.
Vaal Discipline was added.
Leech became non-physical and globally available everywhere.
Unique armor pieces have shown significant power creep.
I may be just a noob who can't really comment on end game requirements.

But, just looking at the passive tree and mechanics of the game in general, I figure a few things about the Life vs ES comparison.

- ES has all its nodes concentrated pretty close to each other. While Life is much more spread about (Aside from that one area around Constitution)

- Life gets inherent recovery while getting nodes (In the form of regen) while ES has to specifically take passives to gain more than the base OOC recovery.

- Life also gains some Armour/Evasion/Resists with some of its nodes while ES is mostly just pure ES and ES recovery (There are exceptions, such as Faith and Steel)

- Life gets the benefit of Life Flasks to help with recovery, while there's no Flask for ES.

Which makes Life seem much stronger at base. While you spend more points to get all the stuff, you also gain other defences along with it, making an allround better character without having to gear for it.

HOWEVER, it's much easier to get lots of ES than it is lots of life. Which seems to be balanced around the weakness that you need to build some life on your ES character or Chaos Damage will wreck you.

HOWEVER, it seems to be far too easy to bypass this supposed weakness. With things like Shavronne's and Solaris Lorica completely removing that mechanic and with it being possible to easily sustain on ES alone making CI super easy (The wording of it and as a newbie who hasn't stacked lots of good ES items, CI sounds like it's supposed to be risky. Like you mitigate Chaos Damage as a weakness, but if your ES drops you're toast)

Meaning, that the end result is: ES is easier to build for, due to its convenient clusters of passives. ES gets higher values, due to how the stats have been balanced. ES doesn't have a weakness, because it's so easy to bypass the Chaos mechanic.

Like, the bypassing of Chaos Mechanic not only means that ES doesn't have a weakness, but it also lets it get additional boons such as using Pain Attunement and Blood Magic auras (In addition to Mana based auras) while Life is stuck with what? A few extra % regen and some Armour from what they had to pick to get to the decent life nodes...

So yeah, that's just one noobs 2c about the whole thing. Whether or not they've tuned end-game to fit into powercreep and the top 1% builds that stack 10k+ EHP to avoid one-shots is for someone else to talk about.
When you can get a Helm with 400 life, shield with 400 life, armour with 700 life, gloves with 200 life and boots with 200 life, then we'll have balance between Life and ES.

Anyway, it was fun pissing in the river, but that river is currently flowing to 3.0 where major changes are sure to occur. Nothing we say or do right now will change any of that because the plans are already in place.
Reading this post I've come to the conclution that people should stop treating life builds equal to ES builds. It's like comparing Pizza to Sushi; Both can be 10/10 in taste (if you like it) but they are completely different.

If both life and ES works in end game, no matter what efforts you will have to do, those efforts are equal to everyone.

Just find something you enjoy and go with it, don't get all "He got more toys then me" on this shit, that stuff only worked when we were toddlers.
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Completed 14 Challengespneuma wrote:
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Completed 28 ChallengesMeWhenum wrote:
player defenses have almost exclusively been nerfed.

No fucking way. It's power creep fucking everywhere.

ZO was added.
GR was added.
VP was added(!).
MoM was added.
Acrobatics was heavily buffed.
Specialty flasks (granite!) were added.
Anti-status flasks became immunity during duration.
Vaal Discipline was added.
Leech became non-physical and globally available everywhere.
Unique armor pieces have shown significant power creep.


Hmm, well those are fair points. I was mostly thinking of literal damage mitigation options, I wasn't really thinking of recovery options, though that's obviously a big part of it.

Also, in my defense, I haven't been here since the very beginning so I don't have a perspective on how things have changed since beta. For example MoM has always existed as long as I've been here. Anyway I guess I should be clearer about what I mean - it doesn't 'feel' like we have gotten better defenses because monster damage has been buffed over time too, as far as I understand it, as well as having new/harder hitting bosses and content added. However player damage definitely does feel power creeped to hell because monster life hasn't really changed much while ascendancies etc. have been a big damage boost.
Last edited by MeWhenum on Mar 20, 2017 6:23:03 PM

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