Everyone dishes ES, but can we take into account the obscene requirements to be "end-game" viable?

Yeah but those are all theory. Block and Evasion are theoretical EHP, they wont prevent you from being oneshot when it comes down to it. Hits to kill is what matters in these scenarios, at a certain threshold ES starts becoming entirely immune to them.

Like if you have 5.5k life as a max block gladiator, with 10k armour* with fortify and 3 endurance charges, you still die in 1 hit to any hit above 10k, thats calculated as 10k for physical damage too, not elemental. When you throw in Volatiles and double extra damage, defenses fall apart. Thats with fantastic gear too and your tree being mostly invest into life (like life always is). It protects you most of the time but not all of the time, theres still a 22-25% chance it goes through your block.

Same goes with Evasion, its nice on paper but when you actually look at the hits to kill, you die on the first hit. You cant get enough pool to support the effective life represented on paper.

Basically what people are arguing is the massive difference in investment cost, both in gear and on the tree.

I wont say that you cant be tanky as life, because you can, but even with top tier gear youre fully capable of being oneshot, thats the gap between mediocre amounts of energy shield and an insanely geared, highly invested life build.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Yeah but those are all theory. Block and Evasion are theoretical EHP, they wont prevent you from being oneshot when it comes down to it. Hits to kill is what matters in these scenarios, at a certain threshold ES starts becoming entirely immune to them.

Like if you have 5.5k life as a max block gladiator, with 10k life with fortify and 3 endurance charges, you still die in 1 hit to any hit above 10k, thats calculated as 10k for physical damage too, not elemental. When you throw in Volatiles and double extra damage, defenses fall apart. Thats with fantastic gear too and your tree being mostly invest into life (like life always is). It protects you most of the time but not all of the time, theres still a 22-25% chance it goes through your block.

Same goes with Evasion, its nice on paper but when you actually look at the hits to kill, you die on the first hit. You cant get enough pool to support the effective life represented on paper.

Basically what people are arguing is the massive difference in investment cost, both in gear and on the tree.

I wont say that you cant be tanky as life, because you can, but even with top tier gear youre fully capable of being oneshot, thats the gap between mediocre amounts of energy shield and an insanely geared life build.

the hits to kill on my ranger and marauder are showing as 6 for 10k phys, vs 3 on the 10k es build we looked at. On one of my ci builds I threw into the calc Im showing 5 hits to kill at 10k. Phys hits dont go over 10k, I dont think they even get to 10k in 1 hit, maybe something like a vaal oversoul/malachai slam in a map, nothing you should be getting hit by. If I look at how much life my marauder loses when hit by uber lzzaro and look down the damage taken per hit hes probably doing like 5k-6k phys per hit.


Heres my thoughts on 1 shots. Im a player who has over 10k hours clocked on this game, most weeks Im playing 5+ hours every day, I play a LOT, so when I talk about a time frame like 2 years of playing this game, thats 1000s of hours. In the past 2 years, on properly specced endgame life builds I have died to 1 shots a total of 3 times. Twice to volatile blood, once to a crit from Magnus Stomrhorns molten shell. They have said that vol blood is being fixed in 3.0, so with that issue gone it would be a single 1 shot in 2 years. That molten shell is technically a spell, and its the only spell I think Ive died to on any proper character in the last 2 years.

I dont think the gear needed to replicate the defense stats I have on my life builds is neccesarily expensive, its still as cheap or cheaper than ci gear. The whole decent level ci gear is cheaper thing, its really not. When a lightning coil is 1 chaos and you can get your boots, gloves, hat etc for 1 to 5 chaos each, and you can facetank guardians with that gear, theres no expense in it.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Yeah but those are all theory. Block and Evasion are theoretical EHP, they wont prevent you from being oneshot when it comes down to it. Hits to kill is what matters in these scenarios, at a certain threshold ES starts becoming entirely immune to them.

Like if you have 5.5k life as a max block gladiator, with 10k life with fortify and 3 endurance charges, you still die in 1 hit to any hit above 10k, thats calculated as 10k for physical damage too, not elemental. When you throw in Volatiles and double extra damage, defenses fall apart. Thats with fantastic gear too and your tree being mostly invest into life (like life always is). It protects you most of the time but not all of the time, theres still a 22-25% chance it goes through your block.

Same goes with Evasion, its nice on paper but when you actually look at the hits to kill, you die on the first hit. You cant get enough pool to support the effective life represented on paper.

Basically what people are arguing is the massive difference in investment cost, both in gear and on the tree.

I wont say that you cant be tanky as life, because you can, but even with top tier gear youre fully capable of being oneshot, thats the gap between mediocre amounts of energy shield and an insanely geared life build.

the hits to kill on my ranger and marauder are showing as 6 for 10k phys, vs 3 on the 10k es build we looked at. On one of my ci builds I threw into the calc Im showing 5 hits to kill at 10k. Phys hits dont go over 10k, I dont think they even get to 10k in 1 hit, maybe something like a vaal oversoul/malachai slam in a map, nothing you should be getting hit by. If I look at how much life my marauder loses when hit by uber lzzaro and look down the damage taken per hit hes probably doing like 5k-6k phys per hit.


Heres my thoughts on 1 shots. Im a player who has over 10k hours clocked on this game, most weeks Im playing 5+ hours every day, I play a LOT, so when I talk about a time frame like 2 years of playing this game, thats 1000s of hours. In the past 2 years, on properly specced endgame life builds I have died to 1 shots a total of 3 times. Twice to volatile blood, once to a crit from Magnus Stomrhorns molten shell. They have said that vol blood is being fixed in 3.0, so with that issue gone it would be a single 1 shot in 2 years. That molten shell is technically a spell, and its the only spell I think Ive died to on any proper character in the last 2 years.

I dont think the gear needed to replicate the defense stats I have on my life builds is neccesarily expensive, its still as cheap or cheaper than ci gear. The whole decent level ci gear is cheaper thing, its really not. When a lightning coil is 1 chaos and you can get your boots, gloves, hat etc for 1 to 5 chaos each, and you can facetank guardians with that gear, theres no expense in it.

I dont agree at all and i played multiple CI builds since Acendancies released. It has been cheaper for me to get ES gear every single time, and it has been significantly easier to craft ES gear as well. My dual VB LL character from last league is already no where near as expensive as my current 2H build.

As far as the 1 to 5c each, no, that is not true at all and you wont find people face tanking rolled guardians with shit gear as life.



Those are just a few of my items on my current character, please show me where i can buy items that good for 1c. You are using a lightning coil example. I AM USING A COIL. You cannot wear a coil without proper tri-res high life gear and you most certainly cannot find that gear for 1 to 5 chaos. YOU WILL NOT 169% Res cap without proper gear with lightning coil. 169% is required in high tier, hard rolled, maps if you want to not take more damage from weakness+curse situations.



As far as your characters and your builds, another large gap is skill usage. What skills being uses in a life build makes just as big of a difference as the whole CI/Life thing. Name lock, actual in a mobs face melee is much more susceptible to dying than a ranged melee attack.

Edit - and to clarify before you point it out, yes, some pieces arent tri-life, thats because i decided to use jewels to compensate for item slots (Life+All Res+Lightning Res). Those jewels were 30c a pop and they are only 3 prop. You wont find jewels like that unless you get lucky and snipe them from a noob. My build is currently setup to compensate 1-2 uniques, if i chose to, while wearing a coil. If i didnt it absolutely would require proper tri res gear which is expensive.

Further proof of jewels.

http://poe.trade/search/ukitoyamokohad

Sapphire ones arent usable because they can only roll 1 mod for phyiscal damage. You want Viridian or Crimson on your investment otherwise you will exalt a useless mod basically every time on a sapphire.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Further proof of jewels.

http://poe.trade/search/ukitoyamokohad

Sapphire ones arent usable because they can only roll 1 mod for phyiscal damage. You want Viridian or Crimson on your investment otherwise you will exalt a useless mod basically every time on a sapphire.

Jewels can be unfair on everyone.

My current build is an elemental tornado shot/blast rain CI build that uses legacy windripper.

My best in slot jewels goes only as far as 3 mods, energy shield, attack speed and projectile damage. A combination that is only available in cobalt.

The 4th mod I could get is either mana regen or energy shield recharge rate, but both are largely secondary in priority.

However I agree with everything else. Investment in life is stupid from every perspective, both from passive points and gear.

And every other defence except life leech Vaal Pact has been nerfed a lot. (juggernaut nerf anyone?) Regeneration is terrible, base leech can't cover reflect, etc. I'd like to see some strength put back into other forms of survival.

"

Apos91 wrote:

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Further proof of jewels.

http://poe.trade/search/ukitoyamokohad

Sapphire ones arent usable because they can only roll 1 mod for phyiscal damage. You want Viridian or Crimson on your investment otherwise you will exalt a useless mod basically every time on a sapphire.

Jewels can be unfair on everyone.

My current build is an elemental tornado shot/blast rain CI build that uses legacy windripper.

My best in slot jewels goes only as far as 3 mods, energy shield, attack speed and projectile damage. A combination that is only available in cobalt.

The 4th mod I could get is either mana regen or energy shield recharge rate, but both are largely secondary in priority.

However I agree with everything else. Investment in life is stupid from every perspective, both from passive points and gear.

And every other defence except life leech Vaal Pact has been nerfed a lot. Regeneration is terrible, base leech can't cover reflect, etc. I'd like to see some strength put back into other forms of survival.

Well im mostly just making the point where, if you dont have it on other things you have to get it on something else.

I bought expensive jewels because i wanted the freedom to add in 1-2 uniques while being 169% capped, if i went directly for tri res on everything i wouldnt have any flexibility in my build and i would have paid more. Life + Tri res gear is brutally expensive.

http://poe.trade/search/ukiomohitarito

Those are helmets with 80+ life and tri res of the same tier as mine. Theres only 14 listed, none of which are even remotely close to 1-5c.

Theres only even been like 20 of the jewels with the values ive shown listed the entire league, thats how rare it is to get those rolls on a viridian or crimson.

you can get these gloves online atm...

+10 to Armour P3
+74 to maximum Life P2
+40% to Cold Resistance
+32% to Lightning Resistance

for 2 chaos, room to bench attack speed.


searching for boots with 70 life, movespeed, 75% ele resist with room to bench a 3rd resist for 105%+ total resist...

these for 1 chaos

+20% to Fire and Cold Resistances
+29 to Strength S5
+58 to maximum Life P4
+35% to Cold Resistance S4
20% increased Movement Speed


room to bench a resist


these for 4 chaos..

+88 to maximum Life P1
+22 to maximum Mana Tier 11 prefix: Cobalt, min=[20] max=[24]
+36% to Cold Resistance S3
+36% to Lightning Resistance S3
20% increased Movement Speed

room to bench a resit.


I use a rats nest on my build, starkonjas are probably better now, theyre 1 chaos each, rats nest are 2 to 3 chaos.



belts, again looking for something can craft a 3rd res on with 80+ life and 75% existing resist..


1 chaos...

+84 to maximum Life P2
+33% to Fire Resistance S4
+43% to Lightning Resistance Tier 2 suffix: of the Lightning, min=[42] max=[45]
Reflects 3 Physical Damage to Melee Attackers

room to bench cold res.



tri res t1 life rustic sash...

19% increased Physical Damage
+92 to maximum Life P1
+28 to maximum Energy Shield P5
+42% to Cold Resistance S2
+34% to Lightning Resistance

room to bench 3rd resist, costs 3 chaos right now online.




I dont ele weak cap on ym coil builds, I have no resist on my hat or jewels and I can swap in a tri res hat for ele weak maps.



31% increased Armour and Evasion??
+91 to maximum Life P1
+45% to Cold Resistance S2
+34% to Lightning Resistance S4
10% increased Stun and Block Recovery

room for 3rd resist, 1 chaos


+93 to maximum Life P1
+41% to Fire Resistance S3
+45% to Lightning Resistance S2
Reflects 9 Physical Damage to Melee Attackers

Fluted Bascinet, room for 3rd resist, 2 chaos buyout.


all these are online right now.




On my evasion build im not even putting my real stats into that calc, Im not putting in legacy coil Im just putting in current coil, not putting in enfeeble, not clicking the taste of hate box, what Im actually showing on the actual full standard league gear Im using is 113,437 ehp with 12 hits to kill against 10k on that calc.

You arent listing any of the bases for the armours pieces, that matters. Also, none of those are anywhere near as well rolled as any of the gear i presented. If you arent capping for elemental weakness + curse in red maps, you die.

Youre presenting lower values on everything. You might have like, 5k life and maybe slightly over capped resists with that at best, with zero room for gear flexibility and additional min maxing.

I have room to throw in 1-2 uniques if i chose to do so, the only item i still need to replace is my ring , it needs a topaz base and life, again, extremely expensive because its obviously a coil ring.

I could slot in a perseverance, doedres, shit i could even do a doedres and get a +1 curse amulet and run tri curse.

I already showed many of my gear pieces, including my helmet and relative poe listings. My helmet alone can be divined up to 99 life with 41/41/41 all res, it has a decent hybird evasion roll but it isnt a regular % roll. At the current values its a piece that costs nearly 10 exalts in comparison. Again, you aint finding anything for proper gearing cheap.

Last league the total cost of my build...

Void Batteries x 2 = 25c each (they got more expensive later on because foxtactics, went up to 40~ per).
Shavs = 2 exalts

Every single other piece of my ES gear i crafted with 1 alch/ 1c screaming/shrieking of woes



are two examples, the other ES pieces are somewhere in my stash but i have too many tabs to go through to search for them, especially other league examples of items

shavs is gone because i sold it for demi gods and pure which i then used to buy kitavas prior to league ending (shavs went from dirt cheap to expensive late which is why i got good profit out of it).

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

You arent listing any of the bases for the armours pieces, that matters. Also, none of those are anywhere near as well rolled as any of the gear i presented. If you arent capping for elemental weakness + curse in red maps, you die.

didnt say they were as well rolled as yours, theyre not as well rolled as mine either, but theyre enough. none of them are es based, theyre either evasion, armour, ev+ar or ev+es.

If you arnt capping ele weak + curse you die... nope, never happens, I swap in a hat for ele weak maps to res cap and thats it essentially, never died to it in 1000s of hours played.

All the boots and gloves have 70+ life, the belt has 80+ life. On my ranger I have 77 life on my boots, 87 on gloves, 89 on belt, giving me a total of 6,640 life with a rats nest on and 6,900 life with a starkonjas. So 74 life gloves, Id have about 40 less life than that with those gloves over my gloves, my gloves only have 1 resist. So might have 5k life with these pieces? If i swapped them in right now Id have over 6,500 life even with a rats nest on.


You hat has etc etc, sure its a rly nice hat, but you can get a fluted bascinet for 2 chaos that can be divined to 99 life + 45%, 41%, 30% resists. You have showboat gear, you dont need that gear. My gear looks insane, but I could swap it for that gear I posted and go facetank chimera or phoenix just the same.


I use this belt, how much is it worth?



a lot. I just bought this for 3 chaos in legacy...



and this one also just now for 3 chaos...




would do exactly the same thing.


You want to search for not only gear you need, but extreme gear where you dont even accept benching another resist, you dont accept having sub optimal base items, you dont accept having t2 life instead of t1 life. Ok, now go search for energy shield gear with those same criteria mate, hubris circlet with t1 es rolls + 41% divinable all resist, how much is that going to cost you in a league? you want to talk about showboat life gear vs showboat es gear or are we comparing showboat life gear vs budget es gear here? Like for like the life gear is cheaper at all levels.


http://poe.trade/search/itusuimarihena


theres your hat in es form and its 20 exalts, theres 1 on the market right now. Youre quoting 10ex for life one, ok, es one costs twice as much.


If you want to count a 400 es + 40% resist + 42 int hubris circlet as costing 1 alch because thats what u crafted it with then I can count your life hat as costing 1 alch surely? Meanwhile an actual search for 380 es + 38% ele resist + 38 int gives us...

http://poe.trade/search/orinatakihitar

cheapest 6.5ex, second cheapest 8 exalts, 3rd is 13 exalts...

I have 10 alchs in legacy, I guess I can turn that into 65 exalts by using them on hubris circlets right now, is that how the game works?

That helmet is valued because of the enchant on it... lol. "Let me link this piece of gear with the best enchant for animate weapon on it, even though its only 400 ES".

Then after that you link Intelligence specific helmets, all of which are blatantly over priced (enchanted ones included). Thats aside the point though because those fall under the "good tier" for 400+ ES. Mediocre tier is 300 ES, you by no means do not need a 400~ ES helmet at all.

Youre being completely disingenuous with what youre linking as "proof" of prices.


Ill humor you anyways though with linked DECENT good ES pieces of 400 ES with atleast 60% res.

http://poe.trade/search/himitatuosarik

Alot note how theres far more available ? Yeah, thats because everyone and their mother is rolling ES pieces. Not only are life pieces more expensive but theyre also not as common which makes obtaining one that much more difficult on top of the price tag.

Edit - Just soo i dont sound bias and to make SURE my point is understood. Im comparing TOP life gear vs mediocre pieces.

Will i agree that really good ES pieces and Top tier pieces are more expensive than life ? Absolutely. But you dont need a 500 es helmet, you dont need a 900 es chest.

300 Es helmet and 700 es chest suffices, both, hilariously cheap in comparison to what is needed for a functional life build.

The scaling difference between the two is massive but for some reason a handful of people dont want to acknowledge it. People arent talking about this for no reason, theyre talking about it because its a legitimate concern to game balance and the integrity of the game.

IF they actually do something about volatiles will life feel much better to play ? Sure will. Will it make melee much better to play ? Sure will. Ive yet to see a single post by GGG saying theyre addressing Volatiles and i cannot imagine them removing one of the only things left in the game capable of killing an energy shield character.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Youre being completely disingenuous with what youre linking as "proof" of prices.

no, quite blatantly you are.

I listed int specific hats because you listed an int hubris and said it cost you either 1 alch or a 1c essence, Im showing you how much that hat actually costs.


You listed your hat and said its worth 10ex, in your own search...

9% increased Evasion Rating??
+91 to maximum Life P1
+40% to Fire Resistance S3
+38% to Cold Resistance S3
+40% to Lightning Resistance S3
10% increased Stun and Block Recovery

ursine pelt like yours, listed for 1 exalt. Youre talking about t1 life + 3x natural 36%+ resists hats, its not my fault theres literally 1 high es hubris circlet with those resists on the market, you are telling me your gear is worth more than its equiv in es, and its quite blatantly not.



I said I coudl equip a build that could do what my evasion ranger does for 1-5c on most of these slots, and Ive shown that. YOU turned that into "well you cant get gear as good as mine for 1-5c' which I never even claimed, so whos twisting shit and being disingenuous? Claiming a hat for 1 alch to 1c that a search for brings back a minimum price of 6.5ex, and then you act as if Im intentionally listing good stuff and you can get medium stuff instead... Im price checking the items you linked mate, you call them blatantly over priced? Thats the market price, welcome to es.

I stand by what I say and its clear from everything linked and price checked so far that I am right in everything Ive said despite you trying to change to goal posts on whats being said constantly.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Will i agree that really good ES pieces and Top tier pieces are more expensive than life ? Absolutely. But you dont need a 500 es helmet, you dont need a 900 es chest.

you dont need the life gear youre linking either, you only need what I was linking, so youre linking mediocre 400 es items at 3 exalts each and Im linking mediocre life items at 1, 2, 3 chaos a pop, point proven.




youre saying decent es hats and your search is 3 exalts per hat, bes tin slot hat for evasion crit melee range ris starkonjas and theyre worth 1 chaos, literally the best hat in the entire game, and the es gear you are calling decent costs more for 1 hat than I could equip an entire coil evasion emelee ranger that could facetank guardians.