Everyone dishes ES, but can we take into account the obscene requirements to be "end-game" viable?

The game if fairly balanced if T16 maps and shaper did not exist and did not become benchmarks.
The interaction with map mods like -max and vuln interacting with mob damage and volatile is the second issue.

Guardian damage and health is grossly overtuned and makes players feel like they need to be god tier to be okay at the game.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

6,500 es is terrible though, you can in no way compare 6,500 es from gear that otherwise has no defenses to 6,500 life. 6.5k es is about as effective as around 3k to 3.5k life. I could farm guardians all day with 6.5k life comfortably, I wouldnt even feel comfortable going past white tier maps with 6.5k es.

I had no trouble doing rare maps up to t10 with 6500 ES w/ Flameburst Totems. Granted, I couldnt stand it anymore and getting more than 6500ES w/o a shield is obscenely expensive but saying anything more than white maps is cringe is kinda a exaggeration.

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elwindakos wrote:

I believe i talked to an articulate person and i was so clear on what i said,yet here you try twist my words and actions.

"Im not suggesting we have es pots, you are suggesting not having them is a buff to es and it clearly isnt. "
By not having to rely to pots you can have a damaging or utility flask.HOWEVER an ES flask,would be a no brainer as life would be meaningless in the process.So no,your analogy is pure shit.

No its not. not having to rely on flasks, you could not use life flasks on a life build, but its better to use them so you do. Ci you dont have that option, that is not a buff, that is a down side, and you prove this by admitting an es flask would be a no brainer.

"

elwindakos wrote:

"You can do some content with 6,500 es, ok sure, the same content could be done with a 3.5k life character."Can you survive a hit of izaro with 3.5k?Heck even complete the whole lab with 3.5k?Twice till now?IF you do,you are good,so good man.Also all those other players aiming for 5k hp at least are idiots.But you....damn

sarang posted a video yesterday of him doing uber lab with 4k life, and at no point did he get down to 500 life. So ya u can do it with 3.5k life. I can do 5 key uber lab runs without losing more than 2k hp on life builds. Its not advisable but yeah u can do it, running any sort of endgame with 6,500 es is not advisable either but it can be done as you have seen for yourself.

"

elwindakos wrote:

"Its said as if 6.5k es is actually a defense worthy of endgame in any way when its really not."
You understand this from my points?What i really said,is with a crappy gear i can have this obsense amount,a life build cannot fathom thinking to have,with half of invested life nodes.

I take ti you mean obscene? not trying to be a dick there just making sure Im understanding you correctly. If so 6.5k es is not an obscene amount, its a pathetic amount. Here you seem to be suggesting that 6.5k es is in some way comperable to 6.5k life, and its simply not.

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elwindakos wrote:

An 7.5k hp,means more than 200% life pool on tree,spread unevenenly across tree.The net gain of es is more so you need a lot less es on tree.If you go for 16k es,you cant be oneshotted "nearly"(like 99% of times)never.With 7.5k and many defences around,you can actually.Means nothing on elemental hits,where it matters most.You canargue a different system must exist for armour or evasion,but to call it equall is absurd at least.

I dont think elemental hits matter the most, at all. Theres an issue with volatile blood that theyre going to fix in 3.0, other than that I dont really think elemental damage is that scary or 1 shotty, certainly not elemental spells. Harsh map mods that scale extra as ele are essentially only applying to attacks which evasion, dodge, block etc are very good at suppressing.

"

elwindakos wrote:

If i can have 8-10k es with half es nodes,guess where all my other points will go.Damage ofcourse,cause i wont realisticaly need more es,if my damage can be over the top.So all your points here are moot.

8-10k es is the effective equiv of 4-5k life, I dont think it takes half as many nodes to get that, and that doesnt mean anything because youre not making a direct build comparison. If you make a 4-5k life crit dagger melee and then an 8-10k es crit dagger melee, does the es build have more damage once u are fully geared and set up? no, I dont think they do tbh. Its a false logic, you simplify the situation to where it loses meaning in practice, sounds good, but doesnt actually pan out like that.

Are you talking direct comparison spell damage builds? If you make an 8-10k es ci build u have more damage than a hybrid caster who has a 8-10k es combined pool? Maybe so, thats why I said what I did about hybrids.

"

elwindakos wrote:

Using life/es though is stronger than ever due to how much advantages es provides.

everything is stronger than ever, were talking comparative.

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casval776 wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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JLawL wrote:

The "obscene requirement" that you speak of is nothing in comparison to what it costs to get the same survival as a life based character. Even with a 200 exalt legacy Kaoms I can't meet the effective health of an ES character who spends 20 exalts on their whole build. How is that even? Not to mention the fact that because of the insane health pool of es, you don't have to invest in any survival stats at all. Meanwhile, again, my life character needs evasion, armor, block, and everything else under the sun just to stay alive.

ES is too good, life is too bad. Either nerf ES, buff life, or reduce the insane damage one shot mechanics of end game bosses.

hp is never going to have equal life pool with es, nor should it. If you are trying to match pure es point for point by stacking pure life then youre always going to fall short, thats a failure to understand defense stacking rather than a failure of life as a mechanic.

How this makes sense is beyond me.
In a CI build, ES is Life. Both serve the same function - A finite resource available to one's character that dictates the amount of points left before death. They're essentially the same on this level.

an hp build has a lot more access to defense mechanics on top of their life pool, if you ignore them and try and just out hp a ci build you will always fail, thats not how the game is supposed to work.

"

casval776 wrote:

Would you rather have 5k Life, 35k Armor, 10k evasion, and 75/75/75 resists
OR
Would you rather have 10k+ ES, 35k Armor, 10k Evasion, and 75/75/75/100 resists

The problem is this isn't exactly a difficult question because one build has the same supplementary defenses as the other with twice the raw health and a bonus of 100% Chaos resistance. That's the problem, one is a clear winner over the other and the only real reason to take Life over ES is mainly because of starting class (CI on a Marauder isn't fun) or niche builds like LL/Auramancer/etc.

but thats not a realistic comparison. The actual comparison is more like do you want a build with...

6k life + 20k armour + 12k evasion + 40% block + 6% life regen

or

13k es + 26% block


the reality is they dont have the same supplementary defenses, so what you are saying is an abstract point completely detached from the reality of the game. Its irrelevant, I might as well say do you want a build with 15k es or a build with 30k life? See life is better... if thats not the reality of the actual game then its meaningless.

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DamageIncorporated wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

6,500 es is terrible though, you can in no way compare 6,500 es from gear that otherwise has no defenses to 6,500 life. 6.5k es is about as effective as around 3k to 3.5k life. I could farm guardians all day with 6.5k life comfortably, I wouldnt even feel comfortable going past white tier maps with 6.5k es.

I had no trouble doing rare maps up to t10 with 6500 ES w/ Flameburst Totems. Granted, I couldnt stand it anymore and getting more than 6500ES w/o a shield is obscenely expensive but saying anything more than white maps is cringe is kinda a exaggeration.

you could probably have done the same with 3,5k life and the defenses that go with it. I said feel comfortable, youre talking about totem builds, are we comparing the comfort of a 3.5k life toe to toe melee build with a ci totem build or are we comparing like for like?

Entering this thread, then seeing the 200 line long comments be like.

"

elwindakos wrote:

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MasterAxe wrote:

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elwindakos wrote:

Es gone "Shit" also on open beta.

Still though,with half es given from items,es will be on par.

I'll give you an example.

When i am reaching

When i am reaching with this things 6500k es and use 25 es nodes,while if i used life i would need literally double that amount to bring it on par,there is a problem with the es.

As you see i have bad ES items,but the es is too much.Try giving the equivelant 20-35 life,and you wouldnt reach that hp's.Not even 3/5th of them

So,in my opinion,es has to be dumbed down by a huge margin.It will still be relevant,but you will need a bigger investment achievieng it.

That is so backwords thinking. ES is actually in a decent place, no need to get crazy with defense nodes, as it is not really needed, however the options are there if you want to go balls out crazy on defense.

Life Builds on the other hand alone require crazy chasing of nodes all over to get a decent benefit, without even factoring in defense like armour and evasion, which leaves very little for offense options, and is usually limited to what you can grab between life nodes. Its not that life builds are 100% non endgame viable, it is the amount of nodes and gear you HAVE to have to reach such a point its freaking crazy stupid.

What backwards thinking you talking about?No,es needs the nerf treatment it recieved during open beta,and i dont talk only about ci.It needs nerf to at least 30% of its value right now.And not only that,make discipline give half of it.

Have in mind,i am es curenntly,i am full aware of what i am talking about

That would be the thought of nerfing the one defense that is currently useful and efficient in this game. Especcially a 30% nerf WTFF, why so we can all be chasing ES nodes just like Life has to? ROFL No thanks. The one major benefit of ES, is it allows you to actually get offense nodes as well.

Imo it would be terrible if they would nerf quantities of es.
The damage spikes mobs does is just stupid. For example few days back got instagibed by some random blue bear in vinktars map (6.5k hp) and it's not even a red tier map.

How does life builds play now? they die left and right or they stack the damage so high so they can one shot everything as fast to prevent that random incoming oneshot (or invest literally everything to defenses and build can't kill stuff).

Would rather see vaal pact rebalance, life buff, monster damage rebalance.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

Imo it would be terrible if they would nerf quantities of es.
The damage spikes mobs does is just stupid. For example few days back got instagibed by some random blue bear in vinktars map (6.5k hp) and it's not even a red tier map.

How does life builds play now? they die left and right or they stack the damage so high so they can one shot everything as fast to prevent that random incoming oneshot (or invest literally everything to defenses and build can't kill stuff).

Would rather see vaal pact rebalance, life buff, monster damage rebalance.

what sort of character were you playing? Did you have any physical damage reduction?

Not sure if it's mentioned, but ES has no other defense behind it then a pure high number, there is no 50% reduced damage taken by stacking armor, or 60% evasion by stacking those stuffs.

I'm neither defending nor arguing in favor to something, but in pure math it's fairly even.

Let's say a boss hits for 10k flat phys damage. The 11k ES stacker is left with 1k es.
The 7k hp 50% armor stacker is only taking a 5k hit and is left with 2k hp.

They have about the same gear in general, and I know this isn't how the game is in most cases, but if you only look at the math, it's really not that much of a difference. Most HP builds forget that they use leech and some sorth of defense stack in addition to their life pool, were most ES builds do not.

Raw nerf of 20-40% of es would break most es builds pretty hard unless you buff some other defense stacking method for them.

"

Fredd32 wrote:

Not sure if it's mentioned, but ES has no other defense behind it then a pure high number, there is no 50% reduced damage taken by stacking armor, or 60% evasion by stacking those stuffs.

I'm neither defending nor arguing in favor to something, but in pure math it's fairly even.

Let's say a boss hits for 10k flat phys damage. The 11k ES stacker is left with 1k es.
The 7k hp 50% armor stacker is only taking a 5k hit and is left with 2k hp.

They have about the same gear in general, and I know this isn't how the game is in most cases, but if you only look at the math, it's really not that much of a difference. Most HP builds forget that they use leech and some sorth of defense stack in addition to their life pool, were most ES builds do not.

Raw nerf of 20-40% of es would break most es builds pretty hard unless you buff some other defense stacking method for them.

Thats not true though. When you add in Fortify and Endurance charges it increases the EHP substantially.

This tool is a bit out of date but the calulations on the values should still be correct (its basically missing ascendancy stuff but has all the basic stuff).

https://jsfiddle.net/1qpx41wm/4/embedded/result/

Type in 10,000 life (this is generic, it functions as ES as well).

Then click "Fortify"

Then click "Endurance charges" and type 3 (base amount available)

Then click "Chaos Golem"

Your EHP just went up by 5000 against level 80 mobs and thats not even including the fact you can easily get more than 10k ES going, run an enduring cry, chaos golem and fortify. It most certainly doesnt include (though you can include) Enfeeble and Temporal chains which is technically not calculable.

This is effective life against most hits, not just physical. Thing is adding small amounts of "defense" to a large pool makes that pool much, much larger at relatively no investment. I think what people are trying to argue here mostly is investment and scaling discrepancy which is, indeed, massive when you look at the numbers.

Most importantly ES works against all damage, not just physical like armour and evasion does. And even more importantly, having a large life pool is all you need, thats why ES is soo good. But you CAN make yourself more tanking by adding in defensive skills.

edit - big thing i forgot to add, that es value as an example is incredibly low. Id say the average ES a user has with decent gear is 12k as CI. As soon as you get ES above 10k it becomes completely incomparable within reason to any of the other options imo.

LL builds should have roughly the same too, i had no trouble getting my LL character to 12k es last league that was with shavs and dual voidbatteries.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

"

Fredd32 wrote:

Not sure if it's mentioned, but ES has no other defense behind it then a pure high number, there is no 50% reduced damage taken by stacking armor, or 60% evasion by stacking those stuffs.

I'm neither defending nor arguing in favor to something, but in pure math it's fairly even.

Let's say a boss hits for 10k flat phys damage. The 11k ES stacker is left with 1k es.
The 7k hp 50% armor stacker is only taking a 5k hit and is left with 2k hp.

They have about the same gear in general, and I know this isn't how the game is in most cases, but if you only look at the math, it's really not that much of a difference. Most HP builds forget that they use leech and some sorth of defense stack in addition to their life pool, were most ES builds do not.

Raw nerf of 20-40% of es would break most es builds pretty hard unless you buff some other defense stacking method for them.

Thats not true though. When you add in Fortify and Endurance charges it increases the EHP substantially.

This tool is a bit out of date but the calulations on the values should still be correct (its basically missing ascendancy stuff but has all the basic stuff).

https://jsfiddle.net/1qpx41wm/4/embedded/result/

Type in 10,000 life (this is generic, it functions as ES as well).

Then click "Fortify"

Then click "Endurance charges" and type 3 (base amount available)

Then click "Chaos Golem"

Your EHP just went up by 5000 against level 80 mobs and thats not even including the fact you can easily get more than 10k ES going, run an enduring cry, chaos golem and fortify. It most certainly doesnt include (though you can include) Enfeeble and Temporal chains which is technically not calculable.

This is effective life against most hits, not just physical. Thing is adding small amounts of "defense" to a large pool makes that pool much, much larger at relatively no investment. I think what people are trying to argue here mostly is investment and scaling discrepancy which is, indeed, massive when you look at the numbers.

Most importantly ES works against all damage, not just physical like armour and evasion does. And even more importantly, having a large life pool is all you need, thats why ES is soo good. But you CAN make yourself more tanking by adding in defensive skills.

I did that and it gives 15,664 effective hp against a 10k phy, but we should really put in the base block of their shield as that matters, which gives 20,611 effective hp.

I then put in the stats of my cyclone marauder and it reports 52,380 effective hp against 10k phys.

I put in the stats of my frostblades evasion ranger and it reports 52,514 effective hp against 10k phys.


I think what he said is actually correct for the majority of encounters in the game. Is it correct for the encounters that matter the most? That is another question. Evasion, block and dodge all work against elemental attacks, not just phys. Personally I dont remember dying to a spell at any point in the last year on a properly defended endgame character. I have died once to vol blood in that time frame though which is elemental secondary damage.





edit: just out of interest I put in the stats of my 11k life legacy kaoms marauder and its showing 32,037 ehp against 10k phys. Which confirms what I feel when playing it, that when you just stack life to crazy levels with life builds you are fragile compared to stacking mitigation and life together.

I put in the stats of one of my actual ci builds, how I make them which is not just stacking energy shield, I have defensive stats beyond that like evasion, and Im showing 49,200 ehp.