Everyone dishes ES, but can we take into account the obscene requirements to be "end-game" viable?

Everything other than the shield was SSF(before there was a league for it), the right tree and gems(also ssf) and discipline net me over 9000ES, not the best but not bad....and it's not like i activly look for or craft towards ES gear

That is more than double the effective health pool as my best life character (4300 HP)

"

DurianMcgregor wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

8k es is a mediocre amount of defense, you could get it with mediocre items, yeah sure. Its probably comparable to a build with 4.5k life and 8k armour or evasion which would take the same level of gear.

I think es would be stronger if it had pots that refilled your es.

Correction: It's more like 4.5k life and 35k armour against physical hits and 8k life against elemental hits or degen.

no, because you have life pots and probably better in combat leech/regen, more endurance charges etc.

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elwindakos wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

8k es is a mediocre amount of defense, you could get it with mediocre items, yeah sure. Its probably comparable to a build with 4.5k life and 8k armour or evasion which would take the same level of gear.

I think es would be stronger if it had pots that refilled your es.

Damn snorkle,you want so much not to get Es nerfed?Are you delusional?Or you think you cant have a good 8k armour and 10kes?The amount i have is not even with a shield!In a build not optimised for purely ES!!I mean....wth...

Even your suggestion on es pots...Whats the life excuse to exist then?And what about the hybrid builds that can achieve more hp/es pool...

Lets talk...but not from our asses...please.

Im all up for a bit of rebalance between life and es but actually I think Im the one trying to keep it real. Its not doing these discussions any favours by letting fiction slide in as reality.

Im not suggesting we have es pots, you are suggesting not having them is a buff to es and it clearly isnt.

You can do some content with 6,500 es, ok sure, the same content could be done with a 3.5k life character. Its said as if 6.5k es is actually a defense worthy of endgame in any way when its really not. All Im seeing it 'look I have terrible substandard gear and the result is I have terrible substandard defenses', I dont think thats what you are trying to imply with your post though. You talk about getting 3/5 of that with the same level of life gear... yeah, sounds about right and sounds like that 3/5 life character would be equally as well defended. You make it sound balanced to me.

Im not saying there isnt an issue but I think Turbodevil is making the real point. Es is shit compared to life if you compare it 1k es vs 1k life, its terrible. You need double or more es totals, the problem is that the leech is allowing them to get it all back too easily.

If they nerf double dipping then they can bring down some boss hp levels, thats 1 factor in the overall point. Then they need to sort out vp leech, if that means the node or the sources of leech, whatever way they want to do it. After that you can nerf CI by like 5% and youre done.

I dont buy this idea that es builds automatically get more damage, i dont think thats true. I dont buy the idea that es should be anywhere comparable to life in total hp, if people are running around with 5.5k to 7k hp then people should be running around with 11k to 15k es, which seems to be the case there abouts, shave a little off maybe, a 16k es build could maybe lose 1k es and call it a day in terms of the balance there imo.


With the damage thing I think its entirely a different issue, I think theres a balance issue with spells vs crit attacks vs non crit attacks where spells do a bit too much damage compared to crit attacks with realistic gear and crit attacks do too much damage compared to non crit attacks. It depends how you want to look at the balance, in terms of buffs or nerfs. If we just take buffs because its whatever, if spells stay steady then crit attacks need about 20% more damage and non crit attacks need about 50% more damage. Probably easier to address that from both angles practically speaking though via nerfing crit multi again and then buffing base weapon damage, then you just balance mob hp to feel right with whatever you end up with. I dont see it as a ci vs life issue, I think you can only compare dps figures when looking at builds that naturally sit in crossover parts of the tree like hard right side crit attack builds and Im not seeing that ci automatically have better damage than life over there, I dont think that pans out when you look at the final geared builds.

Using life as a caster is in a bit of a bad spot, and has been that way ever since they shitcanned the old es/mom/aa combo which I was strongly against from the start. I think if es is addressed it needs to be done so by addressing Infused Shield behind Chaos Innoculation, not via int stacking, general es nodes, es benches or es gear as I have seen suggested because hybrid life + es is not quite where it should be and if you nerf es anywhere other than Infused Shield you just hurt hybrid and ci equally which leaves a life based caster using their default es gear still inferior to ci. I see ci vs life based casters using int gear as a bigger balance issue than ci vs life attackers using dex/str gear personally. Some quality of life there for hybrids in terms of leech and regen rates to es, which pool those rates are based off etc would go a long way.

The "obscene requirement" that you speak of is nothing in comparison to what it costs to get the same survival as a life based character. Even with a 200 exalt legacy Kaoms I can't meet the effective health of an ES character who spends 20 exalts on their whole build. How is that even? Not to mention the fact that because of the insane health pool of es, you don't have to invest in any survival stats at all. Meanwhile, again, my life character needs evasion, armor, block, and everything else under the sun just to stay alive.

ES is too good, life is too bad. Either nerf ES, buff life, or reduce the insane damage one shot mechanics of end game bosses.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

Everything other than the shield was SSF(before there was a league for it), the right tree and gems(also ssf) and discipline net me over 9000ES, not the best but not bad....and it's not like i activly look for or craft towards ES gear

That is more than double the effective health pool as my best life character (4300 HP)

so your life character has 0 evasion, 0 armour, 0 phys taken as ele etc from gear? Does he not have life flasks?


Double the health pool, dunno about double the effective health pool.

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Apos91 wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Apos91 wrote:

If ES was made to have an equally bad efficiency, then how does that solve anything? It just puts ES into the same pool where you can't reach both the required amount of survivability and dps that the content demands.

you can reach the amount of defense and offense needed for the content with life doing any number of builds, you just have to make builds that work, theyre not going to balance the game around poorly made builds.

How many of them do not abuse a strong mechanic coming from a unique like Splinker and how many skill gems are viable through methods like this?

probably the same amount of gems that are viable for a ci build. How many dont abuse sprinkler? I think you can just take that out of the game entirely and nothing about the point changes tbh.

"

JLawL wrote:

The "obscene requirement" that you speak of is nothing in comparison to what it costs to get the same survival as a life based character. Even with a 200 exalt legacy Kaoms I can't meet the effective health of an ES character who spends 20 exalts on their whole build. How is that even? Not to mention the fact that because of the insane health pool of es, you don't have to invest in any survival stats at all. Meanwhile, again, my life character needs evasion, armor, block, and everything else under the sun just to stay alive.

ES is too good, life is too bad. Either nerf ES, buff life, or reduce the insane damage one shot mechanics of end game bosses.

hp is never going to have equal life pool with es, nor should it. If you are trying to match pure es point for point by stacking pure life then youre always going to fall short, thats a failure to understand defense stacking rather than a failure of life as a mechanic.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

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elwindakos wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

8k es is a mediocre amount of defense, you could get it with mediocre items, yeah sure. Its probably comparable to a build with 4.5k life and 8k armour or evasion which would take the same level of gear.

I think es would be stronger if it had pots that refilled your es.

Damn snorkle,you want so much not to get Es nerfed?Are you delusional?Or you think you cant have a good 8k armour and 10kes?The amount i have is not even with a shield!In a build not optimised for purely ES!!I mean....wth...

Even your suggestion on es pots...Whats the life excuse to exist then?And what about the hybrid builds that can achieve more hp/es pool...

Lets talk...but not from our asses...please.

Im all up for a bit of rebalance between life and es but actually I think Im the one trying to keep it real. Its not doing these discussions any favours by letting fiction slide in as reality.

Im not suggesting we have es pots, you are suggesting not having them is a buff to es and it clearly isnt.

You can do some content with 6,500 es, ok sure, the same content could be done with a 3.5k life character. Its said as if 6.5k es is actually a defense worthy of endgame in any way when its really not. Its said as if 6.5k es is actually a defense worthy of endgame in any way when its really not. All Im seeing it 'look I have terrible substandard gear and the result is I have terrible substandard defenses', I dont think thats what you are trying to imply with your post though. You talk about getting 3/5 of that with the same level of life gear... yeah, sounds about right and sounds like that 3/5 life character would be equally as well defended. You make it sound balanced to me.

Im not saying there isnt an issue but I think Turbodevil is making the real point. Es is shit compared to life if you compare it 1k es vs 1k life, its terrible. You need double or more es totals, the problem is that the leech is allowing them to get it all back too easily.

If they nerf double dipping then they can bring down some boss hp levels, thats 1 factor in the overall point. Then they need to sort out vp leech, if that means the node or the sources of leech, whatever way they want to do it. After that you can nerf CI by like 5% and youre done.

I dont buy this idea that es builds automatically get more damage, i dont think thats true. I dont buy the idea that es should be anywhere comparable to life in total hp, if people are running around with 5.5k to 7k hp then people should be running around with 11k to 15k es, which seems to be the case there abouts, shave a little off maybe, a 16k es build could maybe lose 1k es and call it a day in terms of the balance there imo.


With the damage thing I think its entirely a different issue, I think theres a balance issue with spells vs crit attacks vs non crit attacks where spells do a bit too much damage compared to crit attacks with realistic gear and crit attacks do too much damage compared to non crit attacks. It depends how you want to look at the balance, in terms of buffs or nerfs. If we just take buffs because its whatever, if spells stay steady then crit attacks need about 20% more damage and non crit attacks need about 50% more damage. Probably easier to address that from both angles practically speaking though via nerfing crit multi again and then buffing base weapon damage, then you just balance mob hp to feel right with whatever you end up with. I dont see it as a ci vs life issue, I think you can only compare dps figures when looking at builds that naturally sit in crossover parts of the tree like hard right side crit attack builds and Im not seeing that ci automatically have better damage than life over there, I dont think that pans out when you look at the final geared builds.

Using life as a caster is in a bit of a bad spot, and has been that way ever since they shitcanned the old es/mom/aa combo which I was strongly against from the start. I think if es is addressed it needs to be done so by addressing Infused Shield behind Chaos Innoculation, not via int stacking, general es nodes, es benches or es gear as I have seen suggested because hybrid life + es is not quite where it should be and if you nerf es anywhere other than Infused Shield you just hurt hybrid and ci equally which leaves a life based caster using their default es gear still inferior to ci. I see ci vs life based casters using int gear as a bigger balance issue than ci vs life attackers using dex/str gear personally. Some quality of life there for hybrids in terms of leech and regen rates to es, which pool those rates are based off etc would go a long way.

I believe i talked to an articulate person and i was so clear on what i said,yet here you try twist my words and actions.

"Im not suggesting we have es pots, you are suggesting not having them is a buff to es and it clearly isnt. "
By not having to rely to pots you can have a damaging or utility flask.HOWEVER an ES flask,would be a no brainer as life would be meaningless in the process.So no,your analogy is pure shit.

"You can do some content with 6,500 es, ok sure, the same content could be done with a 3.5k life character."Can you survive a hit of izaro with 3.5k?Heck even complete the whole lab with 3.5k?Twice till now?IF you do,you are good,so good man.Also all those other players aiming for 5k hp at least are idiots.But you....damn

"Its said as if 6.5k es is actually a defense worthy of endgame in any way when its really not."
You understand this from my points?What i really said,is with a crappy gear i can have this obsense amount,a life build cannot fathom thinking to have,with half of invested life nodes.

"All Im seeing it 'look I have terrible substandard gear and the result is I have terrible substandard defenses', I dont think thats what you are trying to imply with your post though"
Yeah,but YOU typed it though,so you think about it and shows how your mentality is on this matter.We have eyes and see.

"You talk about getting 3/5 of that with the same level of life gear... yeah, sounds about right and sounds like that 3/5 life character would be equally as well defended. You make it sound balanced to me."
As i said,try doing engame constantly with 3.5khp. if you think it is equal.We will have some great laughs.

"If they nerf double dipping then they can bring down some boss hp levels, thats 1 factor in the overall point. Then they need to sort out vp leech, if that means the node or the sources of leech, whatever way they want to do it. After that you can nerf CI by like 5% and youre done.
Leech is an issue sure.5% on ci is nothing though.

An 7.5k hp,means more than 200% life pool on tree,spread unevenenly across tree.The net gain of es is more so you need a lot less es on tree.If you go for 16k es,you cant be oneshotted "nearly"(like 99% of times)never.With 7.5k and many defences around,you can actually.Means nothing on elemental hits,where it matters most.You canargue a different system must exist for armour or evasion,but to call it equall is absurd at least.

"With the damage thing I think its entirely a different issue, I think theres a balance issue with spells vs crit attacks vs non crit attacks where spells do a bit too much damage compared to crit attacks with realistic gear and crit attacks do too much damage compared to non crit attacks. It depends how you want to look at the balance, in terms of buffs or nerfs. If we just take buffs because its whatever, if spells stay steady then crit attacks need about 20% more damage and non crit attacks need about 50% more damage. Probably easier to address that from both angles practically speaking though via nerfing crit multi again and then buffing base weapon damage, then you just balance mob hp to feel right with whatever you end up with. I dont see it as a ci vs life issue, I think you can only compare dps figures when looking at builds that naturally sit in crossover parts of the tree like hard right side crit attack builds and Im not seeing that ci automatically have better damage than life over there, I dont think that pans out when you look at the final geared builds.
"

If i can have 8-10k es with half es nodes,guess where all my other points will go.Damage ofcourse,cause i wont realisticaly need more es,if my damage can be over the top.So all your points here are moot.

"Using life as a caster is in a bit of a bad spot, and has been that way ever since they shitcanned the old es/mom/aa combo which I was strongly against from the start. I think if es is addressed it needs to be done so by addressing Infused Shield behind Chaos Innoculation, not via int stacking, general es nodes, es benches or es gear as I have seen suggested because hybrid life + es is not quite where it should be and if you nerf es anywhere other than Infused Shield you just hurt hybrid and ci equally which leaves a life based caster using their default es gear still inferior to ci. I see ci vs life based casters using int gear as a bigger balance issue than ci vs life attackers using dex/str gear personally. Some quality of life there for hybrids in terms of leech and regen rates to es, which pool those rates are based off etc would go a long way.
"

Using life/es though is stronger than ever due to how much advantages es provides.

The moment they nerf es, CI build will probably die out. Getting that 10k es in ssf is challenging enough as it is.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

That is more than double the effective health pool as my best life character (4300 HP)

Did you even try?

With horrible SSF gear, my 2h marauder has >5000 life.

Last league, I had one with 8k life, even though he used double ming's heart (30% reduced life). And I didn't really spend a lot of currency to get there.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

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JLawL wrote:

The "obscene requirement" that you speak of is nothing in comparison to what it costs to get the same survival as a life based character. Even with a 200 exalt legacy Kaoms I can't meet the effective health of an ES character who spends 20 exalts on their whole build. How is that even? Not to mention the fact that because of the insane health pool of es, you don't have to invest in any survival stats at all. Meanwhile, again, my life character needs evasion, armor, block, and everything else under the sun just to stay alive.

ES is too good, life is too bad. Either nerf ES, buff life, or reduce the insane damage one shot mechanics of end game bosses.

hp is never going to have equal life pool with es, nor should it. If you are trying to match pure es point for point by stacking pure life then youre always going to fall short, thats a failure to understand defense stacking rather than a failure of life as a mechanic.

How this makes sense is beyond me.
In a CI build, ES is Life. Both serve the same function - A finite resource available to one's character that dictates the amount of points left before death. They're essentially the same on this level.

Armor, Evasion, Dodge, Resists, etc, are supplementary defense mechanics that work together with Life/ES. Here's the fundamental problem:

Would you rather have 5k Life, 35k Armor, 10k evasion, and 75/75/75 resists
OR
Would you rather have 10k+ ES, 35k Armor, 10k Evasion, and 75/75/75/100 resists

The problem is this isn't exactly a difficult question because one build has the same supplementary defenses as the other with twice the raw health and a bonus of 100% Chaos resistance. That's the problem, one is a clear winner over the other and the only real reason to take Life over ES is mainly because of starting class (CI on a Marauder isn't fun) or niche builds like LL/Auramancer/etc.

I've been quite the advocate for CI ever since I tried Invalesco's crit dagger Lightning Strike build way back in the day. Ever since then, and in nearly every temp league, I roll CI. Why? For the reasons listed above.

ES can maintain the same general amount of supplementary defenses as Life builds with higher raw health and complete negation of Chaos damage. Life needs a buff, honestly.

I've tried Life-based ranged builds, spellcasters, melee builds, summoners, and I've tried all of them in a CI version. The CI version is nearly always better. Honestly, I don't roll Life unless I strictly have to because it's just not as good. I'm not playing this game to prove a point since I play solo and I don't enjoy dying 700 times in T8 maps.