Feedback on Zana item missions, specifically when failing to find even after killing all the mobs

I found this thread by searching for Zana Map in the Bug Reports subforum. Because I thought I had a bugged mission that didn't drop the item.

I do know that the mission items can drop from breakables or chests, but until now I had never experienced the range of emotions resulting from killing all the monsters in a map yet still not getting the item.

If it is indeed true that the map/item is no longer a given drop after failing the mission (and it certainly seems like that's the case since I went back through the map and smashed every smashable and opened every chest), then there need to be some other protections going on regarding how the item generation is handled.

Item drops for a mission should be limited to monsters only. The primary goal of this game is to kill stuff with looting chests being more of a cute afterthought than anything else for this genre. It is infuriating to kill the boss and even get 0 monsters alive yet still not have the map/item drop. There could be dozens of breakables or chests still hiding in the map and depending on the kind of map trying to backtrack through it to hunt for those would require both higher clear speed and also the ability to get all the breakables and loot all the chests.

Sure, on a Strand map that's pretty easy. In a Temple map? Hell no. In my case, it was a Channel map.

Since we're getting adjustments to how AoE is handled in 2.6, it seems less likely we'll be able to have the breakables be collateral damage as we romp through the map, and then we'll have to pay attention to the chests too. Good luck even seeing some of those chests on certain builds that easily offscreen!

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

Item drops for a mission should be limited to monsters only.

If you are correct and they really aren't limited to monsters only then holy....
100% agreed with you in that case

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

If it is indeed true that the map/item is no longer a given drop after failing the mission (and it certainly seems like that's the case since I went back through the map and smashed every smashable and opened every chest), then there need to be some other protections going on regarding how the item generation is handled.

Have you considered that it might be intended design that failing the mission deletes the guaranteed drop?

Presuming that the game developers do not want you to be able to get guaranteed drops after failing a Zana mission, what arguments do you have in contradiction of that design? What benefit to gameplay is there, and how do you justify the cost?

I was pretty sure that although an object can drop the map and complete the mission, the guaranteed drop comes from a monster. I think there are some cases where an enemy doesn't show up in the remaining count like exiles under certain conditions. Are you sure you had all the enemies dead before the time ran out?

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adghar wrote:

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

If it is indeed true that the map/item is no longer a given drop after failing the mission (and it certainly seems like that's the case since I went back through the map and smashed every smashable and opened every chest), then there need to be some other protections going on regarding how the item generation is handled.

Have you considered that it might be intended design that failing the mission deletes the guaranteed drop?

Presuming that the game developers do not want you to be able to get guaranteed drops after failing a Zana mission, what arguments do you have in contradiction of that design? What benefit to gameplay is there, and how do you justify the cost?

This would be really tough to be sure about. I think it doesn't delete the item, but all I have to go on is my own anecdotes. I don't fail the missions that often and it's ambiguous afterwards anyway so please don't take my assumption as a statement of fact. My assumption are based on the zana map drops since they drop rare.

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adghar wrote:

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

If it is indeed true that the map/item is no longer a given drop after failing the mission (and it certainly seems like that's the case since I went back through the map and smashed every smashable and opened every chest), then there need to be some other protections going on regarding how the item generation is handled.

Have you considered that it might be intended design that failing the mission deletes the guaranteed drop?

Presuming that the game developers do not want you to be able to get guaranteed drops after failing a Zana mission, what arguments do you have in contradiction of that design? What benefit to gameplay is there, and how do you justify the cost?

I expect it is intended, but not all that is intended ends up being good design.

One of the solutions is to give more a of consolation item than the potentially valuable item. If you fail a map mission then the map gets rerolled to a Tier 1 for example. If you fail a unique item mission then the unique gets rerolled to be a very common low level unique.

The argument I have in contradiction to the design of not dropping the item after the failure is it leaves the player going "Where the heck was the item?" and if they are able to find the rerolled consolation from the same monster then at the very least the person can say "Okay, that's where it was, if I had played X% better then I probably would have gotten it." Knowing how much we need to improve to get the item would be quite valuable.

Or if rerolling the map or unique to something really low tier isn't an option, maybe have it turn into a token that you can give to Zana and she can give some extra lore dialog like "You say this is what was corrupting the map? Thank you for bringing it to me, I'll analyze it to see what more we can do to stave off the corruption."

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

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adghar wrote:

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Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

If it is indeed true that the map/item is no longer a given drop after failing the mission (and it certainly seems like that's the case since I went back through the map and smashed every smashable and opened every chest), then there need to be some other protections going on regarding how the item generation is handled.

Have you considered that it might be intended design that failing the mission deletes the guaranteed drop?

Presuming that the game developers do not want you to be able to get guaranteed drops after failing a Zana mission, what arguments do you have in contradiction of that design? What benefit to gameplay is there, and how do you justify the cost?

I expect it is intended, but not all that is intended ends up being good design.

One of the solutions is to give more a of consolation item than the potentially valuable item. If you fail a map mission then the map gets rerolled to a Tier 1 for example. If you fail a unique item mission then the unique gets rerolled to be a very common low level unique.

The argument I have in contradiction to the design of not dropping the item after the failure is it leaves the player going "Where the heck was the item?" and if they are able to find the rerolled consolation from the same monster then at the very least the person can say "Okay, that's where it was, if I had played X% better then I probably would have gotten it." Knowing how much we need to improve to get the item would be quite valuable.

Or if rerolling the map or unique to something really low tier isn't an option, maybe have it turn into a token that you can give to Zana and she can give some extra lore dialog like "You say this is what was corrupting the map? Thank you for bringing it to me, I'll analyze it to see what more we can do to stave off the corruption."

I agree that they should still drop, if only to preserve the player's perception of affordance consistency in the environment. In layman's terms, to prevent a player saying, "Huh? What the fuck?" upon clearing the map and not finding the item.

I also think there is no need to reroll them to a less valuable object. Zana missions are once per day; allowing the player to receive the item as a consolation prize will not kill the economy.

As an aside, and I'm basing this on personal experience and memory--both subject to flaws, I believe the mission object is also deleted upon completion of the mission via discovery of an unrelated object. If you drop a magic or normal map, the map missions complete, right? I'm fairly certain that I have played missions that have unfolded just like that, and never found a rare map in that area after doing a full clear. I will pay closer attention from now on.