LIFE VS ES

"

Bars wrote:

Why the fuck does most of the forum think no one should be able to do endgame content reliably under any circumstances is beyond me.

Because facetanking under any circumstances means balance is off. As it effectively results in immortal character, as long as player got the RMB pressed.
It denies one of the basic principles of the genre - to never be able to acquire build/gear allowing you to achieve immortality.

Of course perfect balance is impossible, and some types of builds/damage types/defenses will inevitably be superior to others, but that's different.
We are talking about a scenario, where developers are trying to balance the whole game with a broken mechanic in mind, which drastically affects all who don't exploit it.

"

torturo wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

Why the fuck does most of the forum think no one should be able to do endgame content reliably under any circumstances is beyond me.

Because facetanking under any circumstances means balance is off. As it effectively results in immortal character, as long as player got the RMB pressed.
It denies one of the basic principles of the genre - to never be able to acquire build/gear allowing you to achieve immortality.

Of course perfect balance is impossible, and some types of builds/damage types/defenses will inevitably be superior to others, but that's different.
We are talking about a scenario, where developers are trying to balance the whole game with a broken mechanic in mind, which drastically affects all who don't exploit it.

See, here's the snag. You are, of course, one hundred percent right - by your definition of what good balance should look like. But this is all a matter of perspective. You think players should never be able to facetank. I think well-geared, optimized endgame builds should be able to facetank. So, from my perspective, ES is fine and other mechanics should be buffed to bring them in line with ES. I think the player who has invested time, effort and ingenuity in their build should be able to eventually feel powerful. To be a god walking among mortals. Not to worry about dodging puny attacks. To have essentially won the game. You are apparently of a different opinion.

Knowing we are approaching balance discussions from two completely different standpoints, any further discussion is ultimately meaningless. No one will convince the other of their point of view when we're working with different definitions and fundamental assumptions about the game. I don't think there's a rational course of action besides noting we are in disagreement and leaving it at that.

Nah, it's not how it works. "I'm right from my perspective, you too, let's end the conversation. Goodbye." Nope.

First we'll have a passionate discussion, as it will extract the absolute truth out of our points of view, a.k.a synthesis.

Then, I'll prove that I'm right and you are wrong, and my opinion beats yours. Just because it's how the internet works and I obey the rules.

To be continued, got no time atm.

And with those Photoshop skills (or lack of them) as an example of refinement, I_NO, I'm glad you're not a GGG employee on the balance team. -_-

Yeah, yeah, I agree end-game 1-shot potential is way OP, especially detonate dead, but it isn't a game killer as others have suggested. Instead it's a bad mechanic that affects the 1% out there, so guess what percentage of GGG's efforts among the balance team go towards correcting that? BTW, this is a buff... for those who play ranged. ;-)

"

Bars wrote:

I think the player who has invested time, effort and ingenuity in their build should be able to eventually feel powerful. To be a god walking among mortals. Not to worry about dodging puny attacks. To have essentially won the game. You are apparently of a different opinion.

And then what? Sleepwalk through the game and enjoy the scenery?


People are so obsessed with reaching the carrot, they forget that once they do, there is nothing else. You ate the carrot, unless there is another after it, you are done.


Endgame needs damage tweaks, so that non kaom health-builds are viable as well. But the way to balance this is certainly not to make them basically ES with healthpots. Imho, if they lower the spike damage considerably, and increase the sustained damage instead, health would have its place. Armor/evasion works better on fast-medium sized hits than ES does, with the big spaced out hits currently, ES is like a fish in the water, its the perfect enviroment for ES builds and sucks for everything else.

Making Life ES 2.0 though? Shit idea.

"

Cataca wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

I think the player who has invested time, effort and ingenuity in their build should be able to eventually feel powerful. To be a god walking among mortals. Not to worry about dodging puny attacks. To have essentially won the game. You are apparently of a different opinion.

And then what? Sleepwalk through the game and enjoy the scenery?

Level to 100, farm or start a new build. No one plays a single character indefinitely. Besides, the way optimized grinding works in this game, you could define it exactly as sleepwalking. I understand not everyone being willing to do it and enjoying it, but I don't understand why players who are not interested in it want no one else to be able to do it in endgame content.

ES needs (besides ES nodes) VP and Vinktar to be op (one point and one item)
Life needs additional mitigation and even then it is worse than ES

A solution would possibly be to add either mitigation to the %life nodes and/or %life to all AR/EV nodes. Otherwise ES will always be far superior just because you save a lot of points.

And another reason: all %ES nodes are located in a relatively compact area of the tree while life needs a lot of traveling which leads to an even worse relation of points spent

"

Bars wrote:

but I don't understand why players who are not interested in it want no one else to be able to do it in endgame content.

So, basically, to get a challange those players would have to artificially limit themselves in some fashion?

Play one-handed, play without potions, play inefficient builds?


Yeah, i cant see anything wrong with that at all.

"

Cataca wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

but I don't understand why players who are not interested in it want no one else to be able to do it in endgame content.

So, basically, to get a challange those players would have to artificially limit themselves in some fashion?

Play one-handed, play without potions, play inefficient builds?


Yeah, i cant see anything wrong with that at all.

The challenge is getting there. If the road is too short or too easy, this might be a problem. If there's no road at all, as a lot of players want, it's IMO a bigger problem.

Statistically speaking, a small fraction of PoE players get to this point. Very small, even. When everyone and their mother start prancing around in well-geared, powerful and high-leveled HC chars, then we'll have an issue... but I think we're safe for now, aren't we? Actually, almost no one in HC is doing Uber Atziri and Shaper even at this well-developed point of the league, and there are only 9 lvl 100 chars. It could be argued the game right now is too harsh - and yet, people on the forum are complaining because someone (almost exclusively in SC, no less!) is facetanking an endgame boss?! Mind-boggling.

"

Bars wrote:

"

Cataca wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

but I don't understand why players who are not interested in it want no one else to be able to do it in endgame content.

So, basically, to get a challange those players would have to artificially limit themselves in some fashion?

Play one-handed, play without potions, play inefficient builds?


Yeah, i cant see anything wrong with that at all.

The challenge is getting there. If the road is too short or too easy, this might be a problem. If there's no road at all, as a lot of players want, it's IMO a bigger problem.

Statistically speaking, a small fraction of PoE players get to this point. Very small, even. When everyone and their mother start prancing around in well-geared, powerful and high-leveled HC chars, then we'll have an issue... but I think we're safe for now, aren't we?

To reiterate your point:

You relish the RNG gating that is keeping the majority of the playerbase outside of the top end hardest content of the game. But once you get there, it should be auto-pilot able, given the gear?

The fuck.

Please tell me i just misunderstood you.