Atlas mechanics / map drops: Is GGG lying to us? Deliberately not telling the truth?

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Post this in the mechanics stickie.

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ampdecay wrote:

I take this to mean that if its a white mob, it drops up to a +0 map, and no higher, so if the map was already a +0 no change, but say it drops a -2 tier map then it can upgrade to a tier of the same level.

If a boss in a t16 drops it can still only drop maximum of tier 16 so unless it drops less than a t16 map no upgrade chance is even possible.

its not too hard to code a bunch of if else statements to handle the special cases where 99% of the time if just upgrades.

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There's a simple test you can do that you mentioned.

Go into T1 maps with your 102% atlas bonus and kill lots of white mobs. If you get no drops from white mobs over many maps, option c) is most likely. If you create an infinite loop when the map would drop and the server dies, it's option b). If you get a tier 1 drop, it's option a).

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nononononono wrote:

Going from your graphs and playing in standard running nothing but T9 and higher...I notice my map drop pattern is very similar to option c.

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Char1983 wrote:

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nononononono wrote:

Going from your graphs and playing in standard running nothing but T9 and higher...I notice my map drop pattern is very similar to option c.

Please recognize that the histogram is not the maps that drop, but the maps that you can run assuming that you always run your highest-tier map first.

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Char1983 wrote:

It is not hard to code at all, but what exactly you code makes a huge difference.

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Char1983 wrote:

OK, I will write this post under the premise that GGG is NOT lying to us. What they wrote about the Atlas is the following:

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Performing the bonus objective in each type of map unlocks a cumulative 1% chance for a map drop to upgrade by one tier. For example, if you have done this in 60 different types of maps, then you have a 60% chance that a map drop is upgraded by one tier. A chance higher than 100% means that the remainder is used to roll whether the upgrade is two tiers. The total bonus is displayed on the Atlas screen.

Furthermore, they explained in the Manifesto post:

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Chris wrote:

New Atlas Bonus: 1% chance for a map drop to upgrade by a tier per map completed (up to 123~125%). Higher than 100% means it can go up a second tier. Capped at maximum level that could drop from that monster (same as before). There is no reduction to map drop rates.

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We are now testing with the 1% cumulative bonus per map not being a map drop rate bonus, but a bonus chance to upgrade a map drop to the next tier. For example, a 60% bonus means that there's a 60% chance that a map drop is a tier higher than it otherwise would be. If the bonus exceeds 100% then the remainder represents an additional chance of it upgrading two tiers. (You would not be able to find a map that is unable to drop in the area you're currently playing.)

This system allows us to remove the penalty introduced with the previous one, and means that players who complete more types of maps do find significantly better map drops and can sustain higher-tier content more easily. We feel it works a lot better than the other system and are likely to use this bonus in the released version of Atlas of Worlds.

Three things stand out:

1) Supposedly, there has not been a general change in the number of maps that drop, so this is strictly a buff to map drops.

2) Supposedly, it should now be possible to more easily sustain high-tier maps.

3) The wording is incredibly imprecise. While GGG usually is very precise in their wording, here they are not.


About the last point: What happens if a map is upgraded to a tier that cannot drop? And what does "cannot drop" even mean? If I kill a normal monster in a T12 map, that then would drop a T12, which gets upgraded to T13 - can it drop that map? I mean, following the wording, yes, a T13 map "is able to drop in the area you're currently playing" - just not from that monster. I suspect that the drop does not happen, to be honest, even though then the wording is technically incorrect.

So the question is: What happens if e.g. a T11 boss is rolled to drop a T13, which is then upgraded to T14 through the Atlas mechanics? It cannot drop. There are three options:

a) The upgrade does not happen, a T13 drops.
b) The drop is re-rolled until a possible drop is found.
c) The drop is lost (failed drop).


So obviously, b) and c) are not very nice. I somewhat suspect that b) is not the answer, because then you could go into an endless cycle if a white mob in a T1 map is trying to drop any map whatsoever if you have 100+% Atlas bonus.



I've been interested in map drops for a while, and have been modeling them (if you have trouble understanding what comes next, please read that post there):
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1576006

When I first read the announcement of the Atlas bonus, I was stunned, because I was sure that has a huge impact. However, I don't see a big improvement in map sustainability with currently 102% Atlas bonus on Standard. The relevant maps are unlocked, so no drops are lost through that. So what is going on?

Let us first look at a histogram of what long-term mapping looks like before 2.4 (I am ignoring T16s here, because I did not want to re-write the model, but the general conclusions get only better when you include T16s):



I've tuned the parameters such that you can sustain T10, and do a lot of higher-tier mapping. I know one could push for sustaining T10s, but let's look at a more casual mapper here (like me).

As we can see, T10s are sustainable, and about 50% of the time is spent in T12+ maps. Nice.

So let us look at what happens if the option a) is done, assuming 100% Atlas bonus (all maps get upgraded by one tier, I currently have 102%):



Ooops. Did I say it was a massive upgrade? It is. You just start running T15s exclusively. That is because on average, a T15 map would drop a T14 or T15, which in this case is the same - both drop as T15 (or T16, which as I said I ignore). Not sure if that is really the case, but this would definitely let you sustain T14s very easily. This is not what we see, so this is probably not the case.

Let us look at option b), i.e. the map is re-rolled:



Still a very decent upgrade, from sustaining T10s you go to sustaining T12s. With the same way of rolling maps. Damn good, if you ask me.

Last option: c) - the map is lost.



The Atlas bonus actually becomes a massive malus. Not quite surprisingly, cause a lot of map drops are simply lost.



So, I guess the answer must be either

a) Map drops get capped - but map drops in general got nerfed significantly. This kind of is opposed to what GGG is saying. So not very likely (would also suck pretty badly because it would make mapping even more random and streaky).

or

b) The map gets re-rolled - which is an improvement, but not as big an improvement as GGG makes it seem to be. I really hate that GGG is so unclear about how this works. They are kind of hanging up a carrot, but they are not explaining it properly. I asked in the mechanical questions thread already, but did not get an answer yet. The real problem I have with this option: Imagine you are running a T13. The boss rolls a T15 drop. Then, the map gets upgraded to a T16 through Atlas. Which is not possible so it is re-rolled. So instead of an Abyss map, you see a Mud Geyser map (what else?). The "bonus" is actually a malus in this case. Fear not, though: Mud Geyser is no longer T3.


Thoughts are welcome.