Concerns about Scion balance after 2.3

I have some concerns about Scion balance, due to the 2.3 introduction of a map-level Labyrinth and the new +2 Ascendancy points that come with it. Specifically, about the relative balance between Scion and any of the other classes.

The point of going Scion/Ascendant is, essentially, that you forego raw power of the Ascendancy bonuses, in exchange for utility/flexibility. Therefore, in order to make this choice worth it, the power-loss/flexibility-gain ratio has to be worth it.

The major difference between the Ascendent tree and the other classes' trees is that the Ascendant needs 3 points to unlock any powerful bonus; the other trees get notables every 2 points. Hence, the Ascendant previously gave up on 3 "full-power" Ascendancy notables, in exchange for 2 "mini-ascendancies". This was, in some cases, worth it.

After the 2.3 update, the Ascendant will be missing out on 4 of these "full-power" notables, but without gaining an additional "mini-ascendancy". What's worse, there is typically some power-difference within the other classes' Ascendancy notables, with the most powerful ones taking 4 points to reach. Where the Ascendant previously gave up on one of these, it must now effectively give up on two of them.

For the Ascendant, in contrast, the extra points unlock either two passives points, one passive and an attribute node, or one passive and the option to start from another point in the tree. In short, I do not believe that these bonuses will outweigh the power-loss relative to the other options available.

This effect is exacerbated by the Ascendant's "mini-ascendancy" re-balance in 2.3; some of the more powerful nodes have been nerfed, but very few of the weaker ones have been buffed.

My concern is that this overall re-balance (and introduction of additional Ascendancy points) will change the Ascendant from an interesting theory-crafter class that is optimal in some niche/min-maxed cases, to what is effectively a "noob-trap" class that will be avoided by "serious" players.

The only two realistic suggestions I have for fixing this, is to either buff all (or, most) of the "mini-ascendancies", or to give the Ascendant 3 Ascendancy points upon completing the map-level Labyrinth.

Of course, this is all theoretical, and GGG likely has a much finer grasp of how these changes affect the between-class balance. Still, I wanted to put these concerns out there to give my perspective on why I think these changes might negatively affect class-diversity and the viability of one of the more interesting classes in the game.

I can't imagine being able to pick a new starting point as being anywhere near as powerful as any other two point ascendancy.

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DrGoatMD wrote:

I can't imagine being able to pick a new starting point as being anywhere near as powerful as any other two point ascendancy.

Not sure if sarcastic, but no, it generally isn't; you end up in a new starting zone of the tree that you need to path out of, and the Scion is already located on the tree such that it can fairly easily reach out to wherever. It's really very comparable to Intuitive Leap: looks interesting, but is most often sub-optimal and saves you 1-2 points in the best case scenario.

Naw, I wasn't trying to even sound sarcastic.

It saves you fifteen skill points, assuming you wouldn't get a single other thing on the way or near it that you'd want anyway.

You'd almost be better off just grabbing two extra skill points you wouldn't normally right now.

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DrGoatMD wrote:

It saves you fifteen skill points, assuming you wouldn't get a single other thing on the way or near it that you'd want anyway.

Right, it saves you 15 points, if just getting to that starting point is your goal.

However, typically it would be a means to an end, i.e., you want to get to a cluster/keystone that is close to that starting point. In that case, pathing to it from the Scion vs. pathing from the other starting point is typically roughly as efficient. And, "pretty much nothing gained" is not as good as "any other 2 point ascendancy" :)

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DrGoatMD wrote:

You'd almost be better off just grabbing two extra skill points you wouldn't normally right now.

Right, my point exactly. I still think that 2 passives are not nearly as powerful as most of the Ascendancy notables available to other classes, especially if you consider the new access to an additional 4-point one.

ES Scion that doesn't need to path all the way to Witch start to get those ES nodes seems pretty good.

We do not know yet how the ascendancy and tree balance will be done .....
Speculating without having those information ( which we won't have ) will go nowhere honestly.
Let's wait for Prophecy, and then the discussion will have a meaning.

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Fruz wrote:

We do not know yet how the ascendancy and tree balance will be done .....
Speculating without having those information ( which we won't have ) will go nowhere honestly.
Let's wait for Prophecy, and then the discussion will have a meaning.

The new tree's been released.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1665252 The raw skill data's here, and PoESkilltree now has a version that uses it.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

ES Scion that doesn't need to path all the way to Witch start to get those ES nodes seems pretty good.

Not saying it's horrible, but you need a lot of pre-conditions satisfied for that to be worth it. You're talking an ES build that really wants to stick to the lower part of the tree, and can make do with only the ES nodes from Witch start; if you start branching out, you might as well connect from the Scion start itself. If you want to be in the top of the tree anyway (say, to get Ghost Reaver), either connect from Scion, or start Witch/Shadow to get the much more powerful Ascendancies from them.

I'm not going to min-max trees for Scion/other classes to counter every argument you could come up with, but you can probably see why the situation that you're suggesting either doesn't come up for any realistic build, or can be more efficiently solved using the more powerful Ascendancies from other classes.

[Edit]
@Fruz: Yeah, like DrGoatMD said, the updates are available. I specifically waited with raising this point until I could look at the re-balance done on the tree/Ascendancies.

skill tree has been released already - newest Emmit planner has it. there are no changes (well, Arcane Vision moved 2 'clicks' but that is that)

im pretty sure that people that previously had ZERO incentive to be creative as braindead combo of Berserk+Deadeye + Voltaxic + Spark overshadowed EVERYTHING will find a use for these 2 points

i saw few trees that used 'start as another class' trick and these saved roughly ~10 passives. sure it isnt the same as Elemental Conflux (you know, the ascendancy points that CHANGE the game) but it is way more than 'stat' points that most classes are filled with (like XX damage, YY less damage taken, ZZ attack speed and whatnot). you can buy A LOT of classic stats for 10 points

but with broken OP builds in the game there is no need for that because everyone has this broken OP crap as their benchmark. GGG is TOO SLOW nerfing the s.. out of these builds and people get conditioned to facerol and DEMAND changes each time they have to play a normal game