Im not understanding current talk of coc/chaos nerfs...

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lagwin1980 wrote:

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Colonelnut wrote:

CoC? Why are people complaining about wanting this nerfed? It takes a lot of investment (time/currency in most cases) to actually have a CoC worth 2 shits that can function on the offence and defence side of things. STOP complaining, especially these people who have NEVER played this type of build! How can you sit here and say it needs to be nerfed when you've never even played nor spent the time to make one. Anyways I really think you would have to completely remove the skill to nerf it. You cant nerf the internal time and it has been nerfed a few times already. Leave it alone.

CoC dose not really take much investment, and i say that as a self found solo player. my CoC character managed to sail through merc lab easily enough(more easily that more def oriented chars)

You also have

Linked with a shadow trickster giving you far more points to put into damage and defence/life

Just to clarify.. I was super stoked about this weapon myself and had this inital assumption as well when i seen it but, Well... Yeah i went as far as to make a Perandus HC build JUST to get this fucking thing and let me tell you. If you want to make any sort of decent COC build.. This is NOT how you do it. Its nothing more than a simplified niche way to make a COC build that is FAR inferior to even then worst possible version.

The biggest issue with this weapon is APS which on a GOOD COC build is absolutely key. this weapon once you invest in the necessary APS to make it work decent your left with such terribly weak spells that almost everything you saved on crit has to to go to APS and spell.. Leaving you very little to nothing to invest for defenses which your not gonna do well with anyway inherently since we are dealing with a 2H weapon and no shield or block or utility. Like you i was VERY optimistic myself but once i actually tried it i was quite disappointed in how it actually played out. By far the WORST COC build ive seen or made yet.

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Rakiii wrote:

CoC and chaos should stay as niche builds (smth like enchant sorc in d2). If u think its not OP replace it with cleave or other "great" skill.
The game seemed more balanced before those autoatack skills (CoC, CwDT and such) were introduced.

True. If I would have a say in the matter, I would take all those auto-cast gems out of the game. There is already a tendency for most players to simply use one skill. These auto-cast gems only add more fuel to that fire.

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Reinhart wrote:

True. If I would have a say in the matter, I would take all those auto-cast gems out of the game. There is already a tendency for most players to simply use one skill. These auto-cast gems only add more fuel to that fire.

I wouldn't go that far, just cuz I think Cast on Melee Kill is genuinely fun to use without being the balance nightmare CoC is. And Curse on Hit helps transform curses into more usable hitboxes for various types of characters (though I do think it should have a small mana multiplier, which would also tone down the automation through HoT).

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Wiesl_1404 wrote:

Full chaos conversion was primarily never intended by GGG's basic design (someone fucked up there really hard i asume) - so now they are going to nerf chaos conversion items accross the board to fix it.

So, how was full chaos conversion not intended on GGG's part since Voltaxic has existed as essentially a 100% conversion since it was introduced back in version 0.11.4? The problem isn't the conversion on Voltaxic, it's the interactions between Frost Wall and other abilities that allow people to kill everything in half a second with no risk.

CoC should be nerfed to get in line with the other builds .

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sidtherat wrote:

CoCS is 'worse' than self cast? in 2.2? you cannot be serious

check Mathil's ground slam CoCS or his fakener to see what is needed for an uber capable CoCS build:

- vagan dagger (cheap) / sceptre (rare)
- vaal pact
+ some +crit gear (not expensive, however as pretty much any good player plays crit the prices can be a tad higher than on non-crit gear)

you do not need Voll's amulet (it ofc helps but it is not required) nor any mirror-tier gear. if you want to do it on a budget pick Assassin for easy max-crit

upcoming Lacerate skill will make Ground Slam CoCS TWICE as good. fun times - just stock on vagan rapiers

Do you read entire posts or just the first 2 lines because I clearly state that the only good CoC is Discharge or bladefall.

Then you talk a mediocre CoC (wow another version of shatterchuck which involves spamming a ton of random elemental attacks) build and then discharge.

Also unlike the vast majority of you I have 40+ exalt CoC characters including +1 curse voll's devotion. The only thing that CoC excels at is bladefall or discharge, everything else is less then on par with self-cast or a viable build.

Overdramatizing CoC breaking all spells in the game is as lazy as GGG keeping reflect in the game or nerfing V-rift to 66%. Focus on actual key issues and precisely fix it without destroying a variety of builds.

Hell I'm even make a list for you guys:

What makes CoC "broken":

1. Ascendancies (which are being "Rebalanced" so we'll see) Which isn't CoC fault to be exactly
2. Voll's devotion which literally breaks discharge
3. Chaos version for bladefall
4. Vagan weapons

Number 4 would actually ultra weaken most CoC to be pretty under performing acutally.

MFW people trashing Trypanon but forgetting you can get 240% crit multi from Marylenes Fallacy, AKA you can get more crit multiplier by a significant amount than any other COC build.

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Shppy wrote:

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Reinhart wrote:

True. If I would have a say in the matter, I would take all those auto-cast gems out of the game. There is already a tendency for most players to simply use one skill. These auto-cast gems only add more fuel to that fire.

I wouldn't go that far, just cuz I think Cast on Melee Kill is genuinely fun to use without being the balance nightmare CoC is. And Curse on Hit helps transform curses into more usable hitboxes for various types of characters (though I do think it should have a small mana multiplier, which would also tone down the automation through HoT).

yeah but then you realize that exists. You run 5 of those and its pretty crazy.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

MFW people trashing Trypanon but forgetting you can get 240% crit multi from Marylenes Fallacy, AKA you can get more crit multiplier by a significant amount than any other COC build.

Vast majority of CoC builds need accuracy since it's extremely hard to get it, missing 70% of the time on a slow weapon nerfs your damage even with an extra 240% crit multi.

CoC dagger has double of the attack speed of a the mace (Double the procs, easier to cyclone ect) with 100% accuracy, then assuming your discharging then voll's devotion would add metric shit tons of damage with discharge + extremely high uptime on immortal call + some nice stats.

You also miss out on spell damage/other possible rolls on the weapon, or proccing EE.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

CoCS is 'worse' than self cast? in 2.2? you cannot be serious

check Mathil's ground slam CoCS or his fakener to see what is needed for an uber capable CoCS build:

- vagan dagger (cheap) / sceptre (rare)
- vaal pact
+ some +crit gear (not expensive, however as pretty much any good player plays crit the prices can be a tad higher than on non-crit gear)

you do not need Voll's amulet (it ofc helps but it is not required) nor any mirror-tier gear. if you want to do it on a budget pick Assassin for easy max-crit

upcoming Lacerate skill will make Ground Slam CoCS TWICE as good. fun times - just stock on vagan rapiers

Do you read entire posts or just the first 2 lines because I clearly state that the only good CoC is Discharge or bladefall.

Then you talk a mediocre CoC (wow another version of shatterchuck which involves spamming a ton of random elemental attacks) build and then discharge.

Also unlike the vast majority of you I have 40+ exalt CoC characters including +1 curse voll's devotion. The only thing that CoC excels at is bladefall or discharge, everything else is less then on par with self-cast or a viable build.

Overdramatizing CoC breaking all spells in the game is as lazy as GGG keeping reflect in the game or nerfing V-rift to 66%. Focus on actual key issues and precisely fix it without destroying a variety of builds.

Hell I'm even make a list for you guys:

What makes CoC "broken":

1. Ascendancies (which are being "Rebalanced" so we'll see) Which isn't CoC fault to be exactly
2. Voll's devotion which literally breaks discharge
3. Chaos version for bladefall
4. Vagan weapons

Number 4 would actually ultra weaken most CoC to be pretty under performing acutally.

to get this out:



so we can continue:

CoCS (as in Ground Slam CoCS example you call weak) clears all available content. ALL. no exceptions. this alone makes it better than several self cast spells and entire melee 'type'. it has extreme map clear speed AND is very good at killing bosses (unlike mine-poison-bladefall that shreds bosses but is only so-so map clear)

second, the investment required to get to 'clear everything' is minimal compared to 'classic' end-game casters.

CoCS DOES limit design space - they cannot release slow, hard hitting spells (because then we have a bladefail). spells with interesting interactions have to be created as channelled or directly excluded from triggering (orb of storms).

in short - you create a spell and you cannot balance it around casting 3 times a second. you have to balance it around 10 casts a second. with 2 other spells being cast at the same time.

and finally as an insult added to injury - the mana issue. why CoCS builds can cast 10s spells a second for FREE? id call CoCS balanced and moved on if these build had to at least cope with mana costs. just add base spells mana cost to trigger skill mana cost and call it a day.

CoCS builds can IGNORE too many game mechanics (allowing them to spend more points/resources into damage and defences)
- accuracy (vagan weapons)
- mana (elreon jewelry or just not reserving all mana + +MGOH items/jewels)
- cast speed