exp loss on death is a bad old mechanic

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Let's put it this way, Gus: in the same way you claim to "not care" about other players zerging with their remaining portals, my hunch is that GGG does "not care" about you not zerging with remaining portals, at least as far as the death penalty is concerned.

Of course; that would be my hunch too. I go into any suggestions forum with the view that the developers are rational people, which means I assume all their design decisions making up the current state of the game have been made for a reason. That includes decisions that don't reflect my own priorities (which are, by nature, the main kind I'd be making suggestions about).

oops dbl post

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CloudMagic wrote:

There's a whole mass of people playing with the penalty of losing THEIR CHARACTERS and you're complaining about a 10% exp loss.

Yeah except that you don't lose your character; I thought we stopped beating that dead horse awhile ago.


p.s. totally agree he shouldn't complain about the XP loss tho

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mark1030 wrote:

If the critique has something to do with glass cannons, change the formula. Instead of it being a flat 10% of the level's experience, factor in the defenses. Life, ES, current resists (I say current for a reason), armour, evasion, and other mitigation like AA/fortify/endurance charges.

The more of a glass cannon you are, the more experience you lose. The more cumulative defenses you have, the less experience you lose. If you do a -max resist map, you stand to lose more experience because your current resists are lower. Same with Elemental Weakness & Vulnerability maps. So running around with 3500 life is going to cost you a lot more experience on death than running around with 5000 life. Just a thought to reward defensive builds even when they run into high spike damage.

wait wat

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Vhlad wrote:

...

A flat % XP penalty has a number of significantly negative side effects, such as restricting which builds are 100 viable, penalizing sandboxy testing behavior, and rewarding challenge avoidance behavior. Ultimately it makes the game less exciting, because the efficient 100 viable builds are very safe (and very boring). Some players would have a lot more fun leveling to 100 using a build that was riskier and required more attentiveness.

...

Aye, this is why losing a lvl upon death would be ridiculous. Sandboxy weird experiments are half the fun once you get a hi-lvld character. I was in dried lake trying to kill myself with reflect with 0-linked skills the other day.

p.s. We need another Invasion league for everybody to regain their perspective.

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dickhole_mcghee wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

If the critique has something to do with glass cannons, change the formula. Instead of it being a flat 10% of the level's experience, factor in the defenses. Life, ES, current resists (I say current for a reason), armour, evasion, and other mitigation like AA/fortify/endurance charges.

The more of a glass cannon you are, the more experience you lose. The more cumulative defenses you have, the less experience you lose. If you do a -max resist map, you stand to lose more experience because your current resists are lower. Same with Elemental Weakness & Vulnerability maps. So running around with 3500 life is going to cost you a lot more experience on death than running around with 5000 life. Just a thought to reward defensive builds even when they run into high spike damage.

wait wat

Yeah, I read that and thought to myself, "well, that's a big pile of pure, irrational anti-glass bias." As if offense is somehow not a valid form of defense; as if glass isn't more punishing when piloted incorrectly. In any case, no one agreed, so I am not worried about it.

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sidtherat wrote:

respawn cost should stay in PoE and if anything - it should go up. there are too many people playing glass, no-head, right-click builds and thinking they are doing it right because they 'only die a couple of times.. per hour'. the stimuli has to be strong enough for people to understand that they are not building their characters correctly

I'd be fine with that but 10% is also a healthy amount if you actually want to lvl up. The poorly built glass cannons hit a wall fast before lvl90 and it forces finding some way to survive.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Yeah, I read that and thought to myself, "well, that's a big pile of pure, irrational anti-glass bias." As if offense is somehow not a valid form of defense; as if glass isn't more punishing when piloted incorrectly. In any case, no one agreed, so I am not worried about it.

Right, but at the same time it was SO bizarre I had to respect it a bit.

I think the problem lies with many using glass-cannon and shitty-glass-cannon interchangeably. I don't know if this is just limited to POE but I haven't played any other games in a long while, well before I started playing POE.

The idea, like you mention, is that glass-cannons are supposed to not die just like any others, they just achieve it in a different way. The main one obv is just kill everything before it touches you, along with manually move around a lot. POE has a really neat specific one where high dps plus cold dmg allows you to chill and freeze everything, but all-in-all it's very much a pro-tank game.

Basically I died an assload of times trying to push the glass-cannon melee limit without mirrored gear and I've found that a pure glass-cannon isn't even really possible. My high lvl character would still be considered super glass relatively but he's a flask tank plus vaal discipline tank along with having a cwdt defensive setup and even then a moderate ES pool (CI) while relying on ST for some limited ranged capabilities once in awhile. There's just too much stuff you can't manually avoid. I think changing ondar's guile (rip...) was a nail in the coffin and a pro-tank statement.

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sidtherat wrote:

design space is restricted not by death penalty but by fundamental gameplay decisions:

- instant chicken-out mechanics (TP, alt-f4)
- damage > defence (vaal pact/instant leech is THE source of most problems with balance - stuff like RainbowPuke or CoCS builds wouldnt be possible without it. with instant leech your offence is your defence so there is no penalty for playing glass as you are not glass anymore.

Right, forgot to mention this about in my post above about glass not really being glass on POE. Although, I don't look at this as a bad thing necessarily with regards to insta-leech.

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this undervalues playing balanced builds and dumbs down the game)

Maybe, but it's also one of the things saving it from being Path Of Tank. The majority of 'good' and 'solid' non-meta builds are not balanced at all, but the only wall they hit is trying to kill the Elreon statues in time.

Here's how instant leech is a huge problem...
1. Imagine a decent instant-leech build.
2. Now, from a game designer perspective, create an enemy which can kill it, assuming the player is a little sloppy but not a complete idiot.
3. Congratulations, you've just introduced another source of ridiculous spike damage into the game.

If game doesn't have unpredictable intense spike damage, instant healing (such as leech) is OP. If it does have unpredictable intense spike damage, it has unpredictable intense spike damage; the cure is a disease all its own.