The Labyrinth

...and how it should've been implemented. I congratulate GGG on the idea and the creativity, but as always, the chasm between the concept / idea and reality / implementation shows. This is how it should've been done:

When you click on the portal to the lab, it gives you a choice:

-> Ranked mode
-> Standard mode

Ranked mode is for speedruns, leaderboards etc. It's not really meant to be used in utilitarian way. Monsters, traps etc act like they do currently with one little distinction. They ALL deal the damage in the following way: dmg = dmg(f) + dmg(%). Dmg(f) is the fixed part of the equation which would be locked to...Cruel(I think it'd be ok and fair that way) and dmg(%) is the percentage based damage. Meaning, traps would get a fixed damage part added to their percentage based damage and monsters would get the vice versa. This'd make it challenging even for the most thought out level 100 builds. And really bring out the "best of the best".

Standard mode, otoh, would be completely utilitarian. EVERYTHING would deal only the fixed amount and with a bit of planning and skill building, you'd be able to facecheck even the most deadly traps. Why? Because you are not here for the challenge! You are here for the ench + for the Asc.Class (points). Granted, Merc Lab would be only few notches away from the Ranked mode in difficulty, but it would allow you to cheese it(no such thing in Ranked). There is no reason to tax the players who play for fun and hence are doing the lab only for its benefits. These players don't even care if there's a scoreboard.

...what do you think of this implementation of the lab?

Just like all of the "hard" content, it seems to become much easier once the players have figured it out. Give it time. Eventually, players will not be so vexed by it.

Trying to figure out what's right and wrong with it at this time is very short-sighted.

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

Just like all of the "hard" content, it seems to become much easier once the players have figured it out. Give it time. Eventually, players will not be so vexed by it.

Trying to figure out what's right and wrong with it at this time is very short-sighted.

I as a Hardcore player feel like if someone spat in my face with this. I do not find things like the lab fun and only want to do it for utility. If I want the challenge, I'll try funny builds vs Malachai or Maps.

Currently, this option does not exist and hence I feel it is not short sighted at all. In Softcore...yeah right. Hardcore is the true test whether something was properly implemented(or not).

It's just not fun, plain and simple. Maybe I'll get to getting my ascendancy class points some day, but for now I'm not touching that thing again with a 50 foot pole.

Its annoying to do and the reward seem lackluster too , i am glad i have my point for now i tried "farming" it but it just doesnt seem worth my time and sanity.

It does seem to generate quite a bit of currency though. This'd also fit my model:

Double(or even triple) the rate of currency drops in Ranked Lab.
Leave it as it is in the Standard Lab.

I deliberately didn't want to touch the issue of its size. If you ask me, it should be up to 50% smaller and equally more frenetic with traps and what not.

"

Vastranis wrote:

I as a Hardcore player feel like if someone spat in my face with this. I do not find things like the lab fun and only want to do it for utility. If I want the challenge, I'll try funny builds vs Malachai or Maps.

The game providing you with a challenge that is different from what you are used to, requiring you to adopt different tactics to succeed, and where you might very well loose your character if you commit mistakes... feels like somebody spat you in the face?

I thought that was the purpose of ironman gameplay in the first first place, and I've filled the graveyards of Angband, Nethack, ADOM, and many other turn-based roguelikes working on that assumption. I don't play ironman in the real-time ARPGs that have succeeded them because I don't have the reflexes to pull it off and I know it, but surely the idea behind ironman gaming hasn't changed that much, that developers presenting you with challenging content makes you disdain them or infer insult.

I guess your opening post should have clued me in: "Because you are not here for the challenge! You are here for the ench + for the Asc.Class (points)."

Well, guess what? The enchantment and Ascendancy Class are proper rewards for beating a serious challenge that is fundamentally different from all the other challenges in the game. If you doubt you are up to beating the challenge without dying, then skip it and let your character live out its life unascended. If you want the power, take the risk.

"

Pi2rEpsilon wrote:

"

Vastranis wrote:

I as a Hardcore player feel like if someone spat in my face with this. I do not find things like the lab fun and only want to do it for utility. If I want the challenge, I'll try funny builds vs Malachai or Maps.

The game providing you with a challenge that is different from what you are used to, requiring you to adopt different tactics to succeed, and where you might very well loose your character if you commit mistakes... feels like somebody spat you in the face?

I thought that was the purpose of ironman gameplay in the first first place, and I've filled the graveyards of Angband, Nethack, ADOM, and many other turn-based roguelikes working on that assumption. I don't play ironman in the real-time ARPGs that have succeeded them because I don't have the reflexes to pull it off and I know it, but surely the idea behind ironman gaming hasn't changed that much, that developers presenting you with challenging content makes you disdain them or infer insult.

I guess your opening post should have clued me in: "Because you are not here for the challenge! You are here for the ench + for the Asc.Class (points)."

Well, guess what, the enchantment and Ascendancy Class are proper rewards for beating a serious challenge that is fundamentally different from all the other challenges in the game. If you doubt you are up to beating the challenge without dying, then skip it and let your character live out its life unascended.

No, this is not the answer. Just because you've been flogged the whole life, does not mean everyone has to be.

And the Asc.Classes are something people want and is practically the main dish of this expansion. We must differentiate the "I WANT TO BE THE BEST!" from the "Just gimme rewards". Of course, these two groups do not see eye to eye. One is highly aristocratic / individualistic(competitive one), the other is highly democratic / gregarious(cooperative / casual one). And a proper game should take care of both groups in some way. Hell, PoE does it with Talisman etc leagues. How hard could it be to implement what I suggested in OP?

If you would have spent the last hour trying to learn about the lab rather than complaining about it, you might have found it's not so bad.

Edit: But, I forgot... it's been out 24 hours now so you're an expert on it.