GGG, can we get some answers on Conversion please?

"
ihasmario wrote:
A quick question for saving myself some time writing a spreadsheet.

Does conversion to cold damage negatively affect hatred (assuming you have IPD, and not ICD), or is the (now) cold damage converted tagged as both Phys and Cold?




... tututut. Look at my answer page 1.

Ok, i'm a meanie. Second option.

converted damage shares the flags/tags.

both if you have IPD + ICD, the added cold damage will not be counted twice for the hatred calculation <- it's tricky, i mean the physical incr works but not the gain given by converted + cold inc but the physical unmodified by convert+ icd still count ;) then cold incr kicks in.

extra is extra, therefore it can be modified by modifers again.

example:

100 base phys, 100% increased physical, 100% increased cold.
50% physical to cold + hatred 36 % extra damage.

200 physical, + 100/2 * 2 <-cold conv + incr cold , + [(200*1.36)-200]*2 <- hatred + incr cold
200 physical damage + 100 cold damage converted + 144 extra damage converted.

=444

^ edited result, i miss typed it carelessly ;c
I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 22, 2016, 7:27:24 AM
"
Geisalt wrote:
"
ihasmario wrote:
A quick question for saving myself some time writing a spreadsheet.

Does conversion to cold damage negatively affect hatred (assuming you have IPD, and not ICD), or is the (now) cold damage converted tagged as both Phys and Cold?




... tututut. Look at my answer page 1.

Ok, i'm a meanie. Second option.

converted damage shares the flags/tags.

both if you have IPD + ICD, the added cold damage will not be counted twice for the hatred calculation.

example:

100 base phys, 100% increased physical, 100% increased cold. 50% physical to cold + hatred 36 % extra damage.

200 physical, + 100/2 * 2 <-cold conv + incr cold , + [(200*1.36)-200]*2 <- hatred
200 physical damage + 100 cold damage converted + 108 extra damage converted.

=408


Actually, that's wrong. It should be 358.

100 base phys, 50% converted to cold and 36% extra as cold would be 86 cold damage.
Multiplied by 3.0 (1 + 100% phys dmg + 100% cold dmg) would be 258.
And the remaining 50 phys dmg would be multiplied by 2.0 (1 + 100% phys dmg) would be 100.
100 + 258 = 358.

Increased Damage is only calculated once (or else it'd double-dip.)
IGN: Heavenly_Tribulation
Send me a PM on here, I check it all the time :)
Last edited by Sheriff_K on Feb 21, 2016, 4:21:37 PM
damn, i was tired, i dont know what happens. my hatred damage is 108 when it shouldnt, what have i done?!

imma remake the example and calculate it again.


100 base phys, 100% increased physical, 100% increased cold.
hatred 36 % extra damage.


Extra damage uses the increased physical damage, it's (200 * 1.36) - 200 = 72, then it's increased by 100% cold damage so [(200 * 1.36) -200]*2 = 144.

It adds 144 !! damage, not 108... dang, WHAT I HAVE DONE in my previous example?! Why How, i dunno., not sure if i misscalculed or miss typed the result.


Extra uses the multiplied/increased damage as it's own base damage.

somehow yes it's a kind of double dip, if we define double dip like this.
Otherwise Hatred / added fire damage / herald of ash wouln't reach high numbers.

The amount of added is a percentage of the physical damage dealt by the skill.
Dealt by skill, so after modifiers for physical, then the added damage is re increased/multiplied by others modifiers.

and for hatred, before the damage is applied, the physical & cold tags are still shared despites the conversion. Only the applied hit on the target will split the damage in differents elements.



it's not the case of converted damage.

So for converted we have 100 base + 100% increased phys, & 50% cold convert + 100% increased cold.
so phys + conversion = (100*2) + (50*2) = 300

in the end it makes:
144+300 = 444

In thoses 444 damages, there is 344 cold & 100 physical !


for this reason doryani's catalyst is a very great weapon for converted and exceptionnaly good for EXTRA then it becomes insane when you have both (hrimmsorrow + phys to lightning) and dual wield two catas with DUAL STRIKE!
( cata*2 gives 200% inc. ele damage, dual strike uses both weapons at once so both weapons get the 200% )



I was wrong in my previous result, i dont explain it because the math was ok.

and your math is broken,
Why your math is wrong? well... We cannot added extra damage on the conversion. They arent the same, it's not 86 cold damage at all!



I hope i'm not saying bullshit. I can be wrong again Eh, will not be the first time ;)
I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 22, 2016, 7:12:05 AM
Am I the only one that can't find the full order of modifiers that can be applied to damage on the wiki?
Conversion and Damage Based On are calculated before Damage multipliers. The resultant Damage values also benefit from the source-type(s) Damage multipliers.
Sheriff got it right on his last post.

100 Phys
50% Phys Converted to Cold
36% of Phys added as Cold
100% Increased Physical Damage
100% Increased Cold Damage

Damage Based On:
100 * 0.35 = 36 Cold (from Physical)

Conversion:
100 * 0.5 = 50 Cold (from Physical)
100 - 50 = 50 Physical

Damage multipliers:
Physical:
50 * (1 + (100/100)) = 50 * 2 = 100 Physical Damage

Cold (from Physical):
36 + 50 = 86
86 * (1 + (100/100) + (100/100)) = 86 * 3 = 258 Cold Damage


We can add up Hatred and Cold Converion because they use the exact same modifiers. If we had any flat Cold Damage (affixes, Herald of Ice), then we'd have to calculate that flat Damage separately.

"
Am I the only one that can't find the full order of modifiers that can be applied to damage on the wiki?

Damage Conversion has an exceedingly large example that involves just about everything you can throw at Damage calculation. I thought there was another page, but I can't seem to find it so it must've been me hallucinating wildly.
Is that what you're looking for, or am I misinterpresting your question?
Last edited by Vipermagi on Feb 22, 2016, 8:24:32 AM
yeah magi :o

but the wiki says

"

Added Fire Damage is a support gem that adds fire damage to supported skills.

The amount of fire damage added is a percentage of the physical damage dealt by the skill and follows the rules for damage conversion.


http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Added_Fire_Damage

"

Added as

This modifier does not replace the original damage, instead it takes a portion of the damage and adds it to the total as a different damage type. Damage added in this way can exceed 100% of the source damage type, and does not need to be scaled. For example:

A player is wielding a bow that deals 100 Physical Damage, and using a Blackgleam quiver, Hrimsorrow gloves, and Lightning Arrow, as in the above example.
The Lightning Arrow skill is supported by a level 1 Added Fire Damage gem, which has 20% of Physical Damage Added as Fire Damage.

The result of the Converted to modifiers is the same as in the above example, the amounts are scaled to a total of 100% as normal. The Added Fire Damage gem adds an additional 20% of the original Physical Damage as Fire Damage
In summary, the resulting converted damage would be 50 Lightning Damage, 53 Fire Damage, and 17 Cold Damage, and 0 Physical Damage, a total of 120 Damage.



conversion doesnt reduce the amount of damage given by EXTRA.
conversion from x to y doesnt reduce the effectivness of % increased physical damage if the base is physical damage.

Try it in game.

Otherwise, doryani's catalyst couldnt reach 300K DPS

and the gem physical to lightning WOULD BE UTTERLY TRASH.



Of what i understood, converted damage gets two flag, the base damage is still of the same element for the increased that worked on it, completely.

100 base phys, 100% increased phys, 50% phys to fire.

with 100 base phys damage, 100% of the physical increased gives 100% increased to the base damage = 200

so the skill will deal 50% fire 50% physical = 100 physical, 100 fire.

and if we have 100% increased fire on top of it,

it's 300 damage, 200 fire & 100 physical.

seems logic right? we have 200% increased.

with extra 44 to fire it takes the 200 BASE phys before conversion, = 88 boosted by fire increased = 176. ADDED ON TOP OF THE DAMAGE so 476.
I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 22, 2016, 9:38:19 AM
If I get it well, you start with the conversions ("converted to" and "added as"), in the order physical, lightning, cold, fire (you cannot convert chaos) while retaining which types every portion of the damage went through. Then, once this is done, you apply the proper "increased" (and "more") modifiers, adding all increased modifiers that apply to a portion of damage together.

Example
For example, let's say for that 100 base damage, you have :
20% increased lightning damage.
20% increased physical damage.
20% increased cold damage.

30% of physical damage added as lightning damage.
30% physical damage converted to cold.
30% of lightning damage added as cold.
30% lightning converted to cold.

Step 1 => physical conversion.
30% added as lightning => 30 phys/lightning damage.
30% converted to cold => 30 phys/cold damage.
70 phys damage remain.

Step 2 => lightning conversion.
30% added as cold => 9 phys/lightning/cold damage.
30% converted to cold => 9 phys/lightning/cold damage.
21 phys/lightning damage remain. (it's lightning damage but gets both increased values)

Step 3 => increased damage.
70 phys + 20% => 84 physical damage.
21 phys/lightning + 20% + 20% => 29.4 lightning damage.
18 phys/lightning/cold + 20% + 20% + 20% => 28.8 cold damage.
30 phys/cold + 20% + 20% => 42 cold damage.

For a final value of 84 physical, 29.4 lightning and 70.8 cold damage.


Is the calculation method correct?
this is not correct with my hypothesis but i'm apparently the only one who thinks like this?
so i'm probably wrong but ingame i'm almost sure that the physical damage converted to elemental will NEVER EVER reduce your damage potential

and in yours calculations guys there is some damage lost in the conversion, it shouldnt happen and i'm almost sure that it doesnt in game.
I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 22, 2016, 11:33:54 AM
"
Geisalt wrote:
and in yours calculations guys there is some damage lost in the conversion, it shouldnt happen and i'm almost sure that it doesnt in game.

There is no Damage lost whatsoever.

100 Phys, Convert 50% to Cold -> 50 Phys and 50 Cold Damage
100 Phys, 100% Increased Damage -> 200 Physical Damage (x2 total damage)
100 Phys, 50% to Cold, 100% Damage -> 100 Physical and 100 Cold Damage (x2 total damage)

Run the numbers on your own setup if you want confirmation. I'm not sure how else I could convince you.
Last edited by Vipermagi on Feb 22, 2016, 12:07:24 PM
Let's see in game!


my shadow char unarmed, with it's fist deals 16.5 avg physical damage with a frenzy gem, a 138% skill mult.

In the build / gear / tree i have thoses increased:
215% increased Physical Damage
20% increased Elemental Damage

90% chance to hit


Now let's add physical to lightning support gem.


the physical to lightning gems gives 10% increased phys 10% inc lightning
50% physical to lightning and 29% physical as Extra lightning damage.

so with the gem, 225% phys 30% elemental damage.

i put a lvl 20 q20 physical to lightning gem in the link
and reach 8-21 lightning and 5 - 12 physical
so 14.5 light avg dmg + 8.5 avg dmg ( 23 in total)



23 damage is a 40% MORE mult of 16.5

Physical to lightning gives 40% MORE with 29% extra and 50% conversion.
with 30% increased elemental.


here the fist damage has a base of 3.79572 avg
with the rounded numbers of the game... let's cut it up
3.8 * 3.15 (increased) *1.38 ( frenzy) = 16.5186 it's close enough

Sheriff_k method:

3.8 base phys, 50% converted to lightning and 29% extra as cold would be 3 lightning damage.
Multiplied by 3.55 (1 + 225% phys dmg + 30% ele dmg) would be 10.657.
And the remaining 1.9 phys dmg would be multiplied by 3.225 (1 + 225% phys dmg) would be 6.1845.
10.657+ 6.1845 = 16.841,
multiplied by frenzy 1.38 skill mult = 23.24127

23.24127 and 23...

we are close enough, due to the rounded numbers of the in game tooltip.

It works. I'm scumbag! please punch me in the face.


My method:
3.8 base phys, 225% increased physical, 30% increased ele.
50% physical to light + 36 % extra light damage.

3.8* 3.25, + 3.8/2 * 1.3, + [(12.35*1.36)-12.35]*1.3
12.35 physical damage + 2.47 + 5.767 =20.587
*1.38 frenzy= 28.41

I'm way off q_q


Punch me in the face again.
I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 22, 2016, 1:53:02 PM

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