GGG, can we get some answers on Conversion please?

First off, I'm not writing you an email because apparently people want to see stuff like this posted and answered publicly.

Anyway, here are a few questions I really need you to clarify regarding gameplay elements (specifically Conversion rules and Damage interaction):

  • If I use a weapon with a Herald active, is the Herald's added damage applied before/after/simultaniously (with) the hit? E.g. added Cold Damage from Herald of Ice. The same question applies to added damage from gear.
  • How exactly are Conversion rules applied? If I use, let's say, "Arc" with "The Consuming Dark" dagger + "Call of the Brotherhood" ring + "Pyre" ring, how can I calculate the damage? I did this and the tooltip went nuts and pretty confusing.
  • If I use "Lightning Coil" + "Taste of Hate", how does the Conversion work? Which one is applied before/after? Do I end up taking actually more damage? Does it subtract from the "remaining" Physical Damage taken?
  • What if I had 3 Penetration gems (1 from each element) socketed with a Spell and somehow were to convert it into Fire, Cold and Lightning? If I then hit a mob with it, does the e.g. Fire Damage account for the penetration at 100%? Or does it first get converted and then only the remaining damage accounts for the penetration? Is "double-dipping" possible? E.g. I use a Cold Spell socketed with Cold Penetration and Fire Penetration in combination with a "Pyre" ring?


Hmmm... That's about it for now. Can't think of anything else right now. I will update if something else comes to mind.

Thanks in advance!

Cheerio.
Proud creator of Hank the Tank™:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2087746
☛ ♨ ♂ ✌ www.youtube.com/captainwarlord ♂ ♨ ✌ ☚
Last edited by CaptainWARLORD on Feb 18, 2016, 1:58:42 PM
Some excellent questions there, I would venture to guess that you can't double dip the penetration as I think that applies to the "final" created dmg, acting like a "more." Some official clarification would be awesome.
.
Last edited by Entropic_Fire on Oct 26, 2016, 5:37:57 PM
"
Claiohm1708 wrote:
Some excellent questions there, I would venture to guess that you can't double dip the penetration as I think that applies to the "final" created dmg, acting like a "more." Some official clarification would be awesome.

Thank you. I've decided to do this because I got slapped in the face a few times (I believed in false information).

So, this time no more guessing, assumptions or any of that shit. I want clarity. Something only the developers are able to give me. And I will only take their word as weight from now on. The last few times I listened to other players brought me nothing but confusion and embarrassment.
Proud creator of Hank the Tank™:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2087746
☛ ♨ ♂ ✌ www.youtube.com/captainwarlord ♂ ♨ ✌ ☚
"
Entropic_Fire wrote:
Don't the example calculations at the end of this page: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion

clarify all of those situations?

No. I just sweeped over the page, but by the looks of it, they only focus on one-time conversion. Which was not my question.
Proud creator of Hank the Tank™:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2087746
☛ ♨ ♂ ✌ www.youtube.com/captainwarlord ♂ ♨ ✌ ☚
"
If I use a weapon with a Herald active, is the Herald's added damage applied before/after/simultaniously (with) the hit? E.g. added Cold Damage from Herald of Ice. The same question applies to added damage from gear.


The herald/aura/gear changes the damage of the hit it doesn't do damage itself. (Heralds do damage themselves with the trigger but the bonus damage is part of the skill.)

"
How exactly are Conversion rules applied? If I use, let's say, "Arc" with "The Consuming Dark" dagger + "Call of the Brotherhood" ring + "Pyre" ring, how can I calculate the damage? I did this and the tooltip went nuts and pretty confusing.


the conversions happen in this order physical->lightning->cold->fire->chaos

so in your example the lightning is converted to cold via call of the brotherhood then the cold is converted to fire via pyre then the fire is converted to chaos via consuming dark

"
What if I had 3 Penetration gems (1 from each element) socketed with a Spell and somehow were to convert it into Fire, Cold and Lightning? If I then hit a mob with it, does the e.g. Fire Damage account for the penetration at 100%? Or does it first get converted and then only the remaining damage accounts for the penetration? Is "double-dipping" possible? E.g. I use a Cold Spell socketed with Cold Penetration and Fire Penetration in combination with a "Pyre" ring?


You can't double dip penetrations like that, as they reduce the monsters effective resistance, and damage conversions happen before reductions via resistance are calculated.

Here's the wiki article on converisons

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion#Converted_to
Last edited by j33bus on Feb 18, 2016, 2:23:41 PM
Oh, I somehow missed that flow part.

Anyways, I still want the devs to confirm it.

But here's the thing:

"
wikipedia wrote:
The reason is that conversion is an iterative process from one damage type to the next, so if it goes backwards there'll be an infinite loop.


That is not exactly true. If you bind the damage values to be rounded to the nearest Integer, the loop will be closed at some point.

EDIT: Ah, never mind. I see what they mean. Just took me a second to think about it.
Proud creator of Hank the Tank™:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2087746
☛ ♨ ♂ ✌ www.youtube.com/captainwarlord ♂ ♨ ✌ ☚
Last edited by CaptainWARLORD on Feb 18, 2016, 2:27:43 PM
1-

Herald's primary effect always boost the initial skill used.

herald of ash gives extra damage, it's not converted. It's based on the total physical damage of the skill + support gem then improved by % elemental increased AND % more damage ( ele/aoe etc) of the supports gems. Same for thunder/ice but only with flat ele damage.

the secondary effect is only done by the herald itself and is not boosted by the primary skill and it's links but gets the increased of the tree/gear and is boosted by the support gems linked on the herald.

Added cold damage linked to herald of ice will boost the explosion of herald of ice but not the initial strike of your skill that triggers herald of ice.

Same thing for penetration and everything else.

In short, heralds have two separate effects, one boost a "hit" and is considered as an "added effect" for the strike and one works alone with it's own support gems.




2-

Conversions are more simple than it looks like.

Something converted gets the two flags: the initial base that gets converted and the convertion. If you have fireball with 75% fire converted to chaos it receives all (100%) the fire modifiers and 75% of the chaos modifiers. Then in the end, after everything is calculated in the game, the total damage is split into two sources: 25% fire & 75% chaos.

in your example ->

50% of Lightning Damage Converted to Cold Damage
100% of Cold Damage Converted to Fire Damage
75% of Fire Damage Converted to Chaos Damage

it gives 50% lightning damage, 12.5% fire, 37.5% chaos

All your lightning increased / more will work on this converted arc because the base damage is 100% lightning THEN because it has 4 tags: lightning/cold/fire/chaos:

- 50% of your total increased / more cold will work even if you do not deal cold damage in the end,
- 37.5 of chaos increased/ more will work
- and 50% of fire increased / more will work (cuz 50% of lightning is converted to cold then to fire).

note:
% increased damage/more damage/ spell damage/ elemental damage are calculated once for everything.

You add an extra tag ( fire cold chaos) and a part of your damage has access to the modifiers for thoses tags.



You have 100 average lightning ARC damage

Increased:
100% spell, 100% lightning, 100% chaos, 100% fire, 100% cold, 100% elemental
(Ok it's fuckin insane but it's for the example)



100% spell & 100% elemental are generic, will work for everything in the elemental spell ->
200%

100% lightning is not generic but 100% of the base damage is lightning ->
100%

cold is scaled at a 50% of the inital damage, we can "divide it by 2 lol"
100% increased will work only at 50% efficiency. ->
50%

fire is based on 100% of the cold damage but only has 50% efficiency of the total damage. ->
50%

Chaos is based on 50% of total damage too with a 75% conversion on the fire part ->
so 37.5%.


The efficiency sucks, we reach 437.5% increased! and we had 600% increased from all sources.

100 lightning damage becomes 537.5 with 50% light, 37.5% chaos & 12.5% fire.

If you add void manipulation support gem (39% more chaos), only the 37.5% chaos damage will be improved, 39% of 37.5% is a bit useless.

If you use WRATH aura (21% more lightning damage), it will improve 100% of the base damage and therefore IT IMPROVES the fire and chaos damage too but indirectly, only because base damage is bigger and fire/chaos are scaled on this damage . In short, it gives 21% More damage, not more not less, converted damage or not.

^ this logic seems right but it's mathematically wrong, it's how we will perceive it and what happens in game, but not how it's calculated by the engine of the game. The demonstration would be too long, too boring.



-3

lightning coil & taste of hate converts at the same time, the same base damage taken.

legacy LC + toh = 70% physical damage taken to light & cold

so you still take 30% of the physical damage reduced by your armour.

40% of the damage will be reduced by 75% lightning resistance

30% of the damage will be reduced by 85%! cold resistance


example:
you receive a 3 000 physical damage hit with 9000 armour.



You have 75 % res for lightning so you take 1200 lightning damage reduced by 75% : 300 lightning damage


for cold it's 85 , you take 900 cold reduced by 85% : 135

you receive 900 physical damage reduced by 9000 armour : 450
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Armour

so you receive 300+135+450 = 885 damage, from a 3000 physical damage strike.

it's an insane reduction. If you have fortify, this damage is reduced by a 20% again. If you have arctic armour and or endurance charges, only the physical part will be reduced, before fortify!

"
ERRATUM, i was wrong about the arctic/endurance charge so i modified this part. Thx Sheriff_k.



endurance charges: 5% reduced physical damage taken per charge added to the armour reduction
Artic armour: 13% less physical damage taken
fortify: 20% less damage taken

with 3 endurances charges and AA + Fortif, we get a total of 65% phys reduction and 33% less phys taken, also 20% less ele taken.

So, it makes 210 physical damage and 348 elemental damage.

Against a 3000 physical strike, we receive 558 total damage with TOH + LC + 9000 armour + 3 endu charges + Arctic armour + 75% lightning/85% cold <- increased by toh flask.

it's relatively easy to get thoses buffs but Toh is not spammable.... well two of them + poarcher's mark should be enough to get the effect permanently against packs.



-4

Penetrations arent tricky, they will "reduce" the elemental resistance of a monster.
For this reason it's not a more/increased and do not follow the same rules.
So penetrations only work after the damage calculations and will have NO effect on other elemental damage types.
Therefore, 40% fire penetration cannot improve chaos/cold/lightning damage.

With 100 total damage but 12.5% fire and 37.5% chaos and 50% lightning, the 40% fire penetration will reduce the fire monster's resistance by 40% so only your 12.5 fire damage will get the benefit of this reduced resistance!

You cannot use pyre ring + cold penetration, it will not work, you need fire penetration.

With the consuming dark dagger, fire penetration gives it's benefit to 25% of your damage so it doesnt worth it too.

And there is no curses/pene for chaos damage. Only wither boosts the chaos damage AFTER calculations, on the target. So wither is considered as a "More" damage because it increases damages received by the target and not the initial strike.

thoo for poison, vulnerability improves dots damage by 33%, and temporal chain increases the duration by 40%.



-5

Do not ask GGG about game mechanics when you only need to search on the forum a bit or on the wiki, i know it's less convenient, yes it should be explained in game...
But GGG's members have limited time to prepare/upgrade/patch the game and i myself i wasted 2 hours to write this message for your comfort.



I will never be good but always I try to improve.
Last edited by Geisalt on Feb 19, 2016, 12:54:43 AM
Lightning coil and Taste of hate is not Conversion. It's damage taken as, an very important distinction, because damage taken as is not an iterative process.

The wiki page is full of references have you read them all?
Last edited by Illviljan on Feb 18, 2016, 3:59:58 PM
well, you are right, it's not converted. Thank for the clarification illviljan, i used the term converted but it's a mistake. Thoo we can still think of it like a "transformation of something to another" , more or less a conversion but it's not how the game works.

My maths are good, not the term used, sorry :c
I will never be good but always I try to improve.

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