Let me dispel some of your illusions about auction houses.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

That's why it's bad. Not because "D3 did it" or any kind of superstitious mumbo jumbo. But because a system which doesn't encourage skill in trading will, by its nature, lead to an imbalance between trading and farming which creates addictive behavior patterns in players who would rather be farming.

I would argue that trading require more knowledge than skill. POE loot system is manipulative and encourage addictive behavior patterns. It is like The pot calling the kettle black...

"

deathflower wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

That's why it's bad. Not because "D3 did it" or any kind of superstitious mumbo jumbo. But because a system which doesn't encourage skill in trading will, by its nature, lead to an imbalance between trading and farming which creates addictive behavior patterns in players who would rather be farming.

I would argue that trading require more knowledge than skill. POE loot system is manipulative and encourage addictive behavior patterns. It is like The pot calling the kettle black...

That's just arguing semantics. We say skilled engineer or skilled chess player with the understanding that it is an intellectual expertise not a physical one.

Regardless, it has less to do with knowledge/skill than it does with efficiency and item inflation. An auction house won't dramatically increase the number of people trading, but would cause the number of available items to skyrocket. This not only makes buying very efficient, but it causes inflation ultimately devaluing the common level drops, i.e. the majority of "farmed" items.

If it gets too out of control trade becomes the only effective path for generating wealth, which is what we want to avoid.

"

Hackusations wrote:

An auction house won't dramatically increase the number of people trading, but would cause the number of available items to skyrocket. This not only makes buying very efficient, but it causes inflation ultimately devaluing the common level drops, i.e. the majority of "farmed" items.

This much makes it cheaper for those choosing to buy. Seems good. I don't trade myself, I wouldn't glance at an AH, but I don't see a downside for those who do want to shortcut the grind in that at least it's chepaer for them.
NOt so good for those trading the majority of farmed items, maybe, but they get more sales so hopefully recoup overall. And my heart doesn't really bleed.

"

Hackusations wrote:

If it gets too out of control trade becomes the only effective path for generating wealth, which is what we want to avoid.

But this directly contradicts what you first said, that an AH lowers the majority of prices (so is presumably less good for the sellers at generating wealth).
And it's also incorrect.
1/ the only ways of making wealth other than trading are farming for currency, and vendoring for shards and recipes. Both are unaffected. Neither makes you what a trader would call wealthy, at least judging by the item prices I've seen quoted.
2/ trade is already the only way to "generate wealth"; regular smaller trades and/or huge occasional sales if RNG smiles. I leave aside crafting, that needs phenomenal wealth or luck to begin with - and still ends in trade (mirrored item sales etc). This won't be changed by an AH.

I agree with those saying an AH would damage the game, but I think because it would cause too many people to use it as best they could afford, short-cut the grind and play less overall. And I'm not convinved this isn't happening anyway which is why some people burn out so early in a league... run self-found and you won't be anything near finished after 3 months :)

"

Hackusations wrote:

That's just arguing semantics. We say skilled engineer or skilled chess player with the understanding that it is an intellectual expertise not a physical one.

Regardless, it has less to do with knowledge/skill than it does with efficiency and item inflation. An auction house won't dramatically increase the number of people trading, but would cause the number of available items to skyrocket. This not only makes buying very efficient, but it causes inflation ultimately devaluing the common level drops, i.e. the majority of "farmed" items.

If it gets too out of control trade becomes the only effective path for generating wealth, which is what we want to avoid.

Let say you are require to appraise the value of an item. Someone is really good at appraising item(Person A), and someone who isn't(Person B). They are taken to a new environment to appraise the value of an item they never seen before. They could both be terrible at it.

After a few month in the new economy, they are require to appraise an item. Person A could be doing very well, person B is doing fairly poorly. Person A learn fairly quickly and grasp the new economy fairly well. After a few years, they are called again to appraise the value of an item. They both appraise the item fairly accurately.

More Knowledge doesn't give person A an advantage in appraising an item more accurately when he is already able to do so. Person B show much more progress with overcoming its inadequacy with effort, experience and exposure. It is under such circumstance that knowledge have much greater impact than inherent proficiency at something. It is an equalizer. I am not just arguing semantics.

I think people misunderstand. Many people want a better trading system, we are disagreeing with its form. Certain trading improvements escalate existing economical problems, AH is just one of them. People don't wanna fix problems, they just ignore it, avoid it, pretend it doesn't exist.

What do you mean by it is what "we" want to avoid... Some people told me they like trading/flipping...

"

Varana wrote:

"

Hackusations wrote:

An auction house won't dramatically increase the number of people trading, but would cause the number of available items to skyrocket. This not only makes buying very efficient, but it causes inflation ultimately devaluing the common level drops, i.e. the majority of "farmed" items.

This much makes it cheaper for those choosing to buy. Seems good. I don't trade myself, I wouldn't glance at an AH, but I don't see a downside for those who do want to shortcut the grind in that at least it's chepaer for them.
NOt so good for those trading the majority of farmed items, maybe, but they get more sales so hopefully recoup overall. And my heart doesn't really bleed.

"

Hackusations wrote:

If it gets too out of control trade becomes the only effective path for generating wealth, which is what we want to avoid.

But this directly contradicts what you first said, that an AH lowers the majority of prices (so is presumably less good for the sellers at generating wealth).
And it's also incorrect.
1/ the only ways of making wealth other than trading are farming for currency, and vendoring for shards and recipes. Both are unaffected. Neither makes you what a trader would call wealthy, at least judging by the item prices I've seen quoted.
2/ trade is already the only way to "generate wealth"; regular smaller trades and/or huge occasional sales if RNG smiles. I leave aside crafting, that needs phenomenal wealth or luck to begin with - and still ends in trade (mirrored item sales etc). This won't be changed by an AH.

I agree with those saying an AH would damage the game, but I think because it would cause too many people to use it as best they could afford, short-cut the grind and play less overall. And I'm not convinved this isn't happening anyway which is why some people burn out so early in a league... run self-found and you won't be anything near finished after 3 months :)

You are not understanding the economics.

O.K. here is a real life example to explain what I mean by lowering value and wealth generation. If you went to India then you would find that most of the daily commodities are significantly lower in price than in NA, EU, or other first world countries. However, if you have to live in India selling these commodities and work for India wages your income and wealth relative to those costs will be just as low. Thus the items are lower in price, but by your standards of living they aren't cheaper. On the other hand more scarce items such as a Jet or Lamborghini aren't going to be cheaper just because you are trying to buy them in India. Again, because you now have a lower income these items are now in relative terms more expensive.

Get it?

Now, I wasn't that clear about what I meant by trade becoming the only effective path in wealth generation as obviously you have to trade in order to actually get any value out of an item you've farmed. What I was inferring was trading/flipping as opposed to farming as a source of income. We don't want a situation where it's a waste of time to kill content compared to looking for deals on an auction house for the average player.

"

deathflower wrote:

"

Hackusations wrote:

That's just arguing semantics. We say skilled engineer or skilled chess player with the understanding that it is an intellectual expertise not a physical one.

Regardless, it has less to do with knowledge/skill than it does with efficiency and item inflation. An auction house won't dramatically increase the number of people trading, but would cause the number of available items to skyrocket. This not only makes buying very efficient, but it causes inflation ultimately devaluing the common level drops, i.e. the majority of "farmed" items.

If it gets too out of control trade becomes the only effective path for generating wealth, which is what we want to avoid.

Let say you are require to appraise the value of an item. Someone is really good at appraising item(Person A), and someone who isn't(Person B). They are taken to a new environment to appraise the value of an item they never seen before. They could both be terrible at it.

After a few month in the new economy, they are require to appraise an item. Person A could be doing very well, person B is doing fairly poorly. Person A learn fairly quickly and grasp the new economy fairly well. After a few years, they are called again to appraise the value of an item. They both appraise the item fairly accurately.

More Knowledge doesn't give person A an advantage in appraising an item more accurately when he is already able to do so. Person B show much more progress with overcoming its inadequacy with effort, experience and exposure. It is under such circumstance that knowledge have much greater impact than inherent proficiency at something. It is an equalizer. I am not just arguing semantics.

I think people misunderstand. Many people want a better trading system, we are disagreeing with its form. Certain trading improvements escalate existing economical problems, AH is just one of them. People don't wanna fix problems, they just ignore it, avoid it, pretend it doesn't exist.

What do you mean by it is what "we" want to avoid... Some people told me they like trading/flipping...

Trade is more than just over-simplified cases of a posteriori knowledge. There is knowing something and then there is knowing what to do with what you know. It's extremely meta, which is why you see equally educated people in business and economics have vastly different outcomes in the real world. The same applies to virtual economies.

What I meant was most people don't want flipping to be the "only" effective path to wealth generation. I'm fine with flipping in general.

I personally think they should make the game cost 10 dollars. After you do that, you can limit use of an AH by number of items for sale, implement a 20% AH penalty or w/e else you want to do. If that is not an option then they should just put Procurement and PoeTrade into the user interface IN GAME.

Player shops with fixed prices and confirmed existence of the items on a daily rotation.

Also flipping can only exist in a trade system where most people dont know the value of their items. This is the primary problem that AHs are created to solve i.e if there are 100 items that are similar to mine for sale at a similar price then its MY CHOICE if i sell at a low price.

I personally wouldn't want a WoW style AH but player shops has zero valid arguments against it.

"

Hackusations wrote:

Trade is more than just over-simplified cases of a posteriori knowledge. There is knowing something and then there is knowing what to do with what you know. It's extremely meta, which is why you see equally educated people in business and economics have vastly different outcomes in the real world. The same applies to virtual economies.

I never say it is. I am asking whether trading is more of a nurtured ability or inherent ability. When I say "skill", I meant talent or natural aptitude.

I loved D3's AH and quit the day they cancelled it. AH was D3's end game. In fact here trade is end game. Just less efficient. I've actually grown to like trade here as it keeps the bots away more-so and players can still get steals - as long as they are online but thats the whole point. Human interaction keeps the bots away.

Id leave trade AS IS!