Death Penalty (default league)

i've seen some discussions recently about the death penalty on the default league. In its current state here are what i feel to be the problems with it and an analysis on why someone would choose to play either hardcore or softcore.

[Let me first point out that i am neither biased to either hardcore or softcore. i am currently playing softcore but i will at some point play hardcore as well. but right at this moment i feel that the experiences are too similar and below is why]

1) Hardcore players play hardcore because they enjoy the style of play of taking it carefully and the thrill of the punishment of death. Softcore players prefer to take things more quickly and enjoy the action of playing at a faster pace. They also dont want to be punished too much by death, certainly not in a progressional way.

2) When you reach high level the death penalty begins to mean an awful lot more. In my opinion, too much, for the people who chose to play softcore. In fact it means so much at very high level, that your play style has to change to that of a hardcore player. This is not what softcore players want. I personally dont understand why if this is what softcore players did want, why they didnt choose to play on hardcore instead.

3) As a result of this insane death penalty, softcore players begin to wonder either A why they didnt just play hardcore if this is the play style they have been forced into or B why they dont just quit, as they dont like the choice between playing more slowly and progressing, or playing how they used to and not progressing.

15% is so harsh that it acts as a wall to the softcore player.

So what would i do:

either

a) heavily reduce the penalty. For example it could go on the experience gained so that as you get closer to leveling the penalty increases. this would encourage more careful play when nearer to leveling up. it would also mean you couldnt just have spent 5 days getting 15% and then you die and that 5 days have been a complete waste of time.

suggestion: 10% of the exp gained towards that level is lost on death in both cruel and merciless difficulties. I do not feel there needs to be a higher penatly for merciless than cruel. the penalty scales itself as you level anyway.

so for example if you die with 10% exp, you will be reduced to 9%.

If you die with 99% exp you will be reduced to 89.1%.

The penalty is a lot less daunting here but still gives enough incentive not to be over wreckless. The balance i feel is found between cautious and wreckless play. And i feel on a softcore game thats the way it should be.

b) you scrap a penalty based on progression and exp loss completely and introduce something else.

suggestion: GGG make a death penatly list. It is the currency items.

From scroll of wisdom to exalted orbs, every "currency item" is on it.

It looks up the matches between what you have and whats on its list.

you have alchs, chaos, gcp, chromatics, portal scrolls, wisdom scrolls and exalted orbs.

of the matches, an equal probability is assigned to each currency and one is chosen at random.

when one is chosen, the computer calculates 5% of that orb and what that comes out to be. if that is less than 1, you lose 1 orb. if it is greater than 1 you lose 5% rounded up to the nearest whole number.

example 1:

of your currencies above, the computer randomly picks portal scrolls. You have 127 portal scrolls.

5% of 127 is 6.35. rounded up this is 7. 7>1 so you lose 7 portal scrolls.

you were lucky. portal scrolls got picked.

example 2:

of your currencies above the computer randomly picks exalted orbs. you have 3 exalted orbs.

5% of 3 is 0.15<1 so you lose 1 exalted orb

ouch!

example 3:

of the currencies above gcp is picked. you have 58 gcp.

5% of 58 is 2.9>1 so you lose 3 gcp.

again not pleasant.

due to the random nature of the currency you are going to lose (and you never know what it will be) you will still want to avoid death. but you wont be like "oh man, death is so much of a ball ache that i have to play like a HC player".

Its also not meaning you're losing gear or other important things that are needed t actually play the game.

BUT THE CONSEQUENTIAL PERK OF THIS SYSTEM:

players will be less keen to hoard their currency! As such, the rate of inflation will be lower because more people will use their orbs to craft!

Not sure what people make to this but it's be nice to hear the thoughts.
I like your first variant since it scales with lvl as with xp. It also increases the fun of getting a lvl since you worked hard for your last percent but dosn't make a lvl something which is feeling unachievable.

I dislike the second variant:
Its allways a difficult task to interfere with a real market without side effects.
The development and balancing effort would be much to complex.
There are no fixed values for orbs. If you for example are crafting a legendary Chance orbs are much more worth to you.
The function "death(char)-> orb penality" is nearly impossible to balance.

But at all I would be carefull about making the game easier. That destroyed a lot of the genere giants (not calling names) and a lot of the player base of POE is here BECAUSE the game isn't easy.
This will lead to 2 situations:

1. Currencies not dropped from stash = never carry anything good. Found GCP? TP -> put in stash.
2. Currencies drop from stash = create some mule. Found Exalted? Tp -> stash -> relog -> mule it.
IGN: Sociopathy
yeah hadn't thought of that but ... hell something has to be done i think...

at least implement option 1 where the exp loss is say 10% of total gained...

I don't think it would make the game easier enough for it to be an unwelcome change.

Those that want it harder play hardcore. At level 70 or lower 15% doesn't mean too much...

Its like, oh well... 20mins farming ill have it back.

You get higher though and its insane. If you look at it like this.

you're on 90% and you die 6 times at level 90. You had the most horrible streak ever. you lost almost an entire level and yhou're back to 0%. ALL THAT TIME.......gone.

you're on 90% with my system and you die 6 times you would be reduced to something like 47.8%.

Thats a massive difference and imo much more fair. Doesnt really make the game easier but you're much less likely to go "FFS, cba with this anymore."

It just feels too much of a kick in the balls right now to me...
Last edited by DexDeus on February 16, 2013 2:30 PM
The XP penalty should be rebalanced around a maximum estimated amount of player time invested, and not a pure % of XP. For example, they should roughly calculate how much an hour of XP is, and they should set that as a cap for how much is lost.

I agree that merciless should use the same XP penalty as cruel, with the above added limit.
Read about the Self Found League: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/highlight/
--
Less RNG in Crafting: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/316861/highlight/
Last edited by Courageous on February 16, 2013 2:45 PM
Yeah 15% is pretty damn harsh. But that's how it goes sometime you know.

However, I love the idea of it scaling with your total XP - i.e. if you have 90% xp and you die, you go to 89. That way the pressure mounts as you approach the ending of each level - makes for a fun gameplay mechanic.

Although, if they do that they should up it to 20% of current XP imo.
I think its fine where it is now.
It should be punishing to die and its not rough at all compared to hardcore.

Id like to have an incentive to not suicide, but losing my character to one mistake/bug/desync is keeping from playing hardcore (yet).
Well, I decieded to come up with a java app real quick to show you how that would work out with true randomness:

Spoiler

2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Generated 155 Portal scrolls
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Generated 73 Wisdom scrolls
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Generated 16 Chaos orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Generated 23 Alchemy orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Generated 24 Augmentation orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Setting 5% multiplyer.
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 1.0 Alchemy Orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 1.0 Alchemy Orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 4.0 Wisdom Scrolls
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 4.0 Wisdom Scrolls
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 1.0 Alchemy Orbs
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:19:28.983: You lost 1.0 Augmentation Orbs
--TEST 2--
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Generated 140 Portal scrolls
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Generated 36 Wisdom scrolls
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Generated 12 Chaos orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Generated 0 Alchemy orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Generated 42 Augmentation orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Setting 5% multiplyer.
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: You lost 2.0 Augmentation Orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: You lost 2.0 Augmentation Orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: You lost 1.0 Choas Orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: You lost 1.0 Choas Orbs
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: Picking a random item...
2013-02-16 12:23:20.303: You lost 7.0 Portal Scrolls


The program generates random numbers of items (which are on the player/in their stash) and then takes 5% of a random item (picked by a random number, assigned to each item.) then gives you the number taken.

With the two tests above, it is a rather small penalty, and I personally would not agree with this.

Source of the program I created.
Spoiler


import java.sql.Timestamp;
import java.util.Date;
import java.util.Random;


public class Main {

public static void main(String[] args) {
Date date = new Date();
Random rand = new Random();
int ps = rand.nextInt(200);
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Generated "+ps+" Portal scrolls");
int ws = rand.nextInt(100);
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Generated "+ws+" Wisdom scrolls");
int co = rand.nextInt(25);
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Generated "+co+" Chaos orbs");
int ao = rand.nextInt(25);
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Generated "+ao+" Alchemy orbs");
int auo = rand.nextInt(50);
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Generated "+auo+" Augmentation orbs");
double p = .05;
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Setting 5% multiplyer.");
int times = 0;
while (times <= 5) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Picking a random item...");
int i = rand.nextInt(5);
switch (i) {
case 0:
if (ps >=1) {
double loss = (ps*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Portal Scrolls");
}
times++;
break;
case 1:
if (ws >=1) {
double loss = (ws*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Wisdom Scrolls");
}
times++;
break;
case 2:
if (co >=1) {
double loss = (co*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Choas Orbs");
}
times++;
break;
case 3:
if (ao >=1) {
double loss = (ao*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Alchemy Orbs");
}
times++;
break;
case 4:
if (auo >=1) {
double loss = (auo*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Augmentation Orbs");
}
times++;
break;
case 5:
if (ps >=1) {
double loss = (ps*p);
float whole = Math.round(loss);
if (whole == 0.0) {
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": Percent of item lost would be too low, getting next item.");
break;
}
System.out.println(new Timestamp(date.getTime())+": You lost " + whole + " Portal Scrolls");
}
times++;
break;
}
}
}
}


You can download it Here. Just save it somewhere, open cmd and go to the directory you saved it in (cd C:/users/kodfod/Desktop/ for example). Then type java -jar Items.jar
Last edited by kodfod on February 16, 2013 5:34 PM
first mistake: comparing the hc death penalty to the trivial sc one. losing some exp is really not that bad in a game that is almost exclusively about gear.
IGN - Grimnyra
Last edited by rogueyoshi on February 16, 2013 5:32 PM
"
rogueyoshi wrote:
first mistake: comparing the hc death penalty to the trivial sc one. losing some exp is really not that bad in a game that is almost exclusively about gear.


Anything can be compared. Of course the penalty is never as great as HC. But i said it gets closer and closer until the death penalty is so great (ie days of farming) that you might as well be playing HC because your efforts not to die are comparable to someone who plays HC.

The issue I have is that HC and SC are two seperate styles of play. As stated above a HC player plays carefully and this is a certain playstyle

A SC player will still not want to die, but they like to play at an overall faster pace.

When the death penalty is so severe that it slows a SC player down to that of a HC one, then the penalty is not balanced IMO.

Of course im talking about high level here like 82+ or so when 15% exp is at least a few hours of farming.

But then you get to 90+ where its more like 15% is like 24 hours of farming lets say (yes these values are plucked from thin air for the purposes of the example).

Now who, is going to want to lose 24 hours worth of farming for a mistake... no one, so they deviate towards playing like a HC player.

So the point is... if you planned on playing passed say level 85... you might as well have just started on HC.

There should be a distinctive variation in playstyle at ALL levels from that of a SC to a HC player.

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