Do you believe ?

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

Just being fair here just because we compare expensive shit to PoE doesn't mean PoE cannot be expensive and good.

I have faith GGG in becoming a large company with having all the money they need to make exactly they want, I find it more insulting that you guys all GGG is going to amount to is some small indie company in the middle of some country nobody knows about. It's not like they just released PoE and we don't already know GGG can become even more.

Main reason why people are so critical of PoE because they give off the vibe of being a professional blizzard level company while still using "indie resources." They mostly don't know better but why should GGG stay with the latter? If they can provide even better moving up then that's fine. But I would be highly disappointing in GGG like I said earlier if they just want to stay they are right now.

No, it means exactly that. PoE cannot become expensive and good. It's an either-or situation. You know why? Because PoE is a niche product. It caters to a minority with very specific tastes. If they wanted to be a large-scale game for the masses, guess what... PoE would've been a completely different game. A dumbed-down joke that babysits its players and can be played with a large degree of success even by a complete idiot (*cough* D3 *cough*). That's the result of capitalism and globalisation: the broader the audience a product caters to, the more financially successful it will be. So what? The majority is fucking stupid, that's what. Cater to the lowest common denominator and you'll get the big bucks.

Think of movies - which are the most financially successful ones in recent years? Superficially shallow stuff which doesn't make you use a single brain cell, what's more, if you used one, you'd realize how incredibly stupid it is. Avatar, Avengers, all the comic book movies and so on. While there still are intelligent, sophisticated movies, they are a niche product consumed by a much smaller audience and therefore they have less financial resources to work with.

You want PoE to conform with the production quality standards of large scale commercial games but to remain an essentially niche product. You want to have the pie and eat it, too.

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

A perfect example would be league of legends, small indie game that ballooned up to be the most popular billion dollar game for the foreseeable future. Can GGG move their product to this god status? I believe they can, but something must be done about the attitude about how we want to progress this game.

Also people should complain about the game, that means they play it enough to actually provide feedback. I also don't get this mystical taboo that it's unfair to talk shit about an "indie company." League of legends gets pages and pages of shit posting on their forums but the game moves on.

LoL would be a terrible example. It is a DotA clone created by some of the people who worked years upon years on DotA. Well, DotA first appeared as a Warcraft 3 custom map. Which means it used the complex, sophisticated and highly expensive 3D engine developed by Blizzard for Warcraft 3. It also used Warcraft 3's ready player base and all the rest of the game's infrastructure to gain popularity, a loyal fan base and to grow year after year. LoL used this enormous base as a stepping stone: they had an already well-developed game concept with an enormous player base which grew on Blizzard's shoulders for many years. LoL also employed the DotA developers with their years of experience - once again carried on Blizzard's shoulders.

Something else to think about: there were thousands of Warcraft 3 customs maps at the time. The only one which turned into a successful game of its own is DotA (and LoL by extension). It's a fluke, a strike of genius, an exception to all rules. It's a parasite which quietly grew within Warcraft 3, feasted on its flesh and eventually killed it and became larger than the host.

I am NOT a Blizzard fan, what's more, I hate their guts for what they've become - a travesty of the company they once were. Still, I recognize their contribution.

"

No, it means exactly that. PoE cannot become expensive and good. It's an either-or situation. You know why? Because PoE is a niche product. It caters to a minority with very specific tastes. If they wanted to be a large-scale game for the masses, guess what... PoE would've been a completely different game. A dumbed-down joke that babysits its players and can be played with a large degree of success even by a complete idiot (*cough* D3 *cough*). That's the result of capitalism and globalisation: the broader the audience a product caters to, the more financially successful it will be. So what? The majority is fucking stupid, that's what. Cater to the lowest common denominator and you'll get the big bucks.

Think of movies - which are the most financially successful ones in recent years? Superficially shallow stuff which doesn't make you use a single brain cell, what's more, if you used one, you'd realize how incredibly stupid it is. Avatar, Avengers, all the comic book movies and so on. While there still are intelligent, sophisticated movies, they are a niche product consumed by a much smaller audience and therefore they have less financial resources to work with.

You want PoE to conform with the production quality standards of large scale commercial games but to remain an essentially niche product. You want to have the pie and eat it, too.

You know how funny you sound bars right? Niche doesn't mean it wouldn't be extremely profitable, expensive or critical acclaim doesn't mean dumbed-down or babysitting.

I'm honestly really disappointed in you how you responded to me.

The niche of of PoE is already an ARPG, there is no other choice other then D3. Even if you call that a "niche." Amazing globally popular games do not have to be "dumbed down" or make from an "indie company" to be good.

There are dozens of games within every single niche that are timeless classics from rpgs, shooters, roguelikes, crpgs, ect ect. Just because the game is within a niche doesn't mean it should be substandard bullshit.There are countless high quality AND high budget games made by large companies, where the hell do we get that special snowflake indie companies are the only one who make great games theses days. Unless you are telling me all of the good games cannot possibility be made by an AAA company with stockholders that people all love.

Also are you joking me? "Superficially shallow stuff" You are the one to judge the quality of movie or products? A comic book/super hero movie is "less well made" then a "intelligent sophisticated movie?" Come on bars really. What if the super book/comic book movie is extremely well made but not just for you? Should we had gotten shitty comic book adaptions made by fans with no budget or good actors for the rest of the human race?

You people of the forums need to get off your hipster pedestal about GGG being an indie company and it's great "because it's indie." GGG doesn't need defending, they are a good company that knows how to make a great game. A larger company with more money and resources to put out higher quality games is logical assuming GGG doesn't lose quality or their vision in the process.

They manage to be voted game of the year once, they manage to become top of the steam charts for a few weeks, they manage to get all of the popular casters and streamers to all play the game. You tell me this game can't be popular? No you would be part of the problem of the cycle of people patting GGG on the back and telling them "it's okay" as oppose to telling them "you missed your chance, go play catch up."

"

LoL would be a terrible example. It is a DotA clone created by some of the people who worked years upon years on DotA. Well, DotA first appeared as a Warcraft 3 custom map. Which means it used the complex, sophisticated and highly expensive 3D engine developed by Blizzard for Warcraft 3. It also used Warcraft 3's ready player base and all the rest of the game's infrastructure to gain popularity, a loyal fan base and to grow year after year. LoL used this enormous base as a stepping stone: they had an already well-developed game concept with an enormous player base which grew on Blizzard's shoulders for many years. LoL also employed the DotA developers with their years of experience - once again carried on Blizzard's shoulders.

Something else to think about: there were thousands of Warcraft 3 customs maps at the time. The only one which turned into a successful game of its own is DotA (and LoL by extension). It's a fluke, a strike of genius, an exception to all rules. It's a parasite which quietly grew within Warcraft 3, feasted on its flesh and eventually killed it and became larger than the host.

I am NOT a Blizzard fan, what's more, I hate their guts for what they've become - a travesty of the company they once were. Still, I recognize their contribution.

How would "LoL" be an terrible example. You think chris just randomly decided to make an video game and started programming path of exile in his basement and created the ARPG genre out of thin air. PoE is inspired by D2 and similar arpgs of the time and obtained a large following of players who wanted to play an arpg that wasn't D3.

The main point was that an indie company can become a global powerhouse and keep the quality of their product while massively adding content and making it loved world wide. They literally took the niche moba genre and put it out there. DoTA was completely niche (even more so then arpgs in general, one of the most far off genres similar to roguelikes) but people didn't in the forums didn't just tell each other "ok it's okay icefrog/eul's, your just a mod of a rts." We all pushed the game to the greatest heights possible.

Yes, I do mean a product can't be niche and extremely profitable. It all depends on our definitions of "niche" and "extremely profitable", of course. And I can judge these movies - I find them extremely stupid. They have their good qualities, I've watched some of them and been mildly entertained - but they are very, very stupid. I'm not saying all obscure indie European movies are better, I find most of them pretentious and boring. They are just less stupid on average. Again: extremely profitable = made to appeal to as many people as possible = stupid. That's all there is to it.

About DotA, there is some truth to what you're saying but I just don't think it can apply to PoE in general. DotA is a PvP game, PoE is a predominantly PvE one. They are too different in their core. To appeal to a larger audience with a PvE game, you have to make it highly idiot-friendly.

Also, I'm not saying we shouldn't criticise PoE and push GGG to make it better, I've done this myself repeatedly - all I'm saying is we should have more realistic expectations, try to be less harsh and never forget we are talking about real people who may very well read our words and be deeply affected by them. It's not a faceless multinational hydra-like corporation. This reminds me of the feedback section: players complain they think their feedback is not heard, but they often write the vilest shit you could imagine. Well, if you want to be heard, best make sure the people you're talking to actually want to hear what you have to say.

If I had to boil down to the essence of the message I'm trying to convey, I'd use my signature: you have to be realistic.

But then, I can use it to summarize almost everything.

"

Bars wrote:

Yes, I do mean a product can't be niche and extremely profitable. It all depends on our definitions of "niche" and "extremely profitable", of course. And I can judge these movies - I find them extremely stupid. They have their good qualities, I've watched some of them and been mildly entertained - but they are very, very stupid. I'm not saying all obscure indie European movies are better, I find most of them pretentious and boring. They are just less stupid on average. Again: extremely profitable = made to appeal to as many people as possible = stupid. That's all there is to it.

About DotA, there is some truth to what you're saying but I just don't think it can apply to PoE in general. DotA is a PvP game, PoE is a predominantly PvE one. They are too different in their core. To appeal to a larger audience with a PvE game, you have to make it highly idiot-friendly.

Also, I'm not saying we shouldn't criticise PoE and push GGG to make it better, I've done this myself repeatedly - all I'm saying is we should have more realistic expectations, try to be less harsh and never forget we are talking about real people who may very well read our words and be deeply affected by them. It's not a faceless multinational hydra-like corporation. This reminds me of the feedback section: players complain they think their feedback is not heard, but they often write the vilest shit you could imagine. Well, if you want to be heard, best make sure the people you're talking to actually want to hear what you have to say.

If I had to boil down to the essence of the message I'm trying to convey, I'd use my signature: you have to be realistic.

But then, I can use it to summarize almost everything.

Well of course if being toxic is just something that shouldn't be done in general, but what I think what this forums is missing is what I went over earlier.

"

They manage to be voted game of the year once, they manage to become top of the steam charts for a few weeks (Actually when I think about it I think it's a few months), they manage to get all of the popular casters and streamers to all play the game.

To add upon that we where in (gaming)news, we where in articles/writing and everyone raved about this game.

I am being realistic, we need to ask "what" happened. I'm not asking PoE to achieve something it didn't before, and it sure as hell being "indie" didn't stop them.

Also you act as though this never happened before, did everyone forget diablo 2 or something.

What happened is that PoE has tremendous initial appeal but after some time spent playing a lot of the initial hype an luster wears off and people realize exactly how grindy and repetitive it is. The interesting part of the game is accumulating enough knowledge of builds, items and skills - when you hit that level, it suddenly turns... boring. That's all. It's the same with every ARPG I've ever played. PoE actually managed to keep me interested for far longer than any other. The main difference from D2 is that D2 was a groundbreaking game, so it took people much longer to get bored. The players who play PoE are predominantly players who've played lots of other ARPGs too, and there are a lot of similarities. We just don't have that "wow" factor anymore. It's not that D2 was fundamentally better, it was just new and we were younger. Hell, I was 14 when it came out - I was able to play and enjoy almost anything at that time. Now I'm incredibly picky and it's very difficult to find a game which interests me.

If you want a game which doesn't get old, or at least does so at a much slower rate, there are PvP games for that.

It's not so much the product as your changed perception of it. Years ago, I smoked weed regularly and would often go to the movies high as fuck. What happened was, even the most boring crap would be fucking fascinating, and then slowly get boring towards the end when the weed's effect would wear off. I wasn't going to movies with an incredibly good beginning and lame ending, it was my perception. Same could be said for PoE to some degree. You started it with the rose tinted glasses of hope and wonder: wow, what a passive tree, wow, so many possibilities and items, wow, this will rekindle my passion from the good old D2 days... with time, you got to know all about the tree and the skills and the items, learned the bad options and the good ones and what was a sea of possibility before turned into a few optimal builds. What was a process of exploration, learning and discovery turned into the same old shit you've probably done in every other ARPG: level up, farm, grind your brain off.

"

Bars wrote:

What happened is that PoE has tremendous initial appeal but after some time spent playing a lot of the initial hype an luster wears off and people realize exactly how grindy and repetitive it is. The interesting part of the game is accumulating enough knowledge of builds, items and skills - when you hit that level, it suddenly turns... boring. That's all. It's the same with every ARPG I've ever played. PoE actually managed to keep me interested for far longer than any other. The main difference from D2 is that D2 was a groundbreaking game, so it took people much longer to get bored. The players who play PoE are predominantly players who've played lots of other ARPGs too, and there are a lot of similarities. We just don't have that "wow" factor anymore. It's not that D2 was fundamentally better, it was just new and we were younger. Hell, I was 14 when it came out - I was able to play and enjoy almost anything at that time. Now I'm incredibly picky and it's very difficult to find a game which interests me.

If you want a game which doesn't get old, or at least does so at a much slower rate, there are PvP games for that.

It's not so much the product as your changed perception of it. Years ago, I smoked weed regularly and would often go to the movies high as fuck. What happened was, even the most boring crap would be fucking fascinating, and then slowly get boring towards the end when the weed's effect would wear off. I wasn't going to movies with an incredibly good beginning and lame ending, it was my perception. Same could be said for PoE to some degree. You started it with the rose tinted glasses of hope and wonder: wow, what a passive tree, wow, so many possibilities and items, wow, this will rekindle my passion from the good old D2 days... with time, you got to know all about the tree and the skills and the items, learned the bad options and the good ones and what was a sea of possibility before turned into a few optimal builds. What was a process of exploration, learning and discovery turned into the same old shit you've probably done in every other ARPG: level up, farm, grind your brain off.

That's the thing, if the fans and GGG wants the game to just be this then so be it.

Which is why I said it was a shame, market is wide open for an next generation arpg but if you guys think PoE isn't it then there's nothing to discuss ;v

Also if that was the case then shit would had died off ages ago. Unless your telling me nearly static games like cs:go/mobas/other pvp games are the only ones that continue to get people to play it compared to other successful ongoing pve games like mmos.

Besides when your movie example I'm not asking PoE to be watched everyday like a Disney movie. But as a current it doesn't even rank as a "really good movie" in history that you watch once awhile or people recognized.

It's a pretty hard crash from when the game was released. For most people it's that 'really good game that stopped being fun."