Fortify implementation was a mistake

After playing and watching beta streams for a while, I must say fortify was not a good solution to the melee problem

It falls to the same trap some skills or combination of skills have fallen to, over the PoE timeline

Why do I think its a bad implementation ?

1. It's mandatory - with new monster damage its not a choice. This means every melee build will spend a socket on it. But it will not want to spend a socket on a primary build, but rather will link it to WB or leap slam

2. It's not really melee-exclusive. Casters use daggers and melee move skills. Sure there are things like accuracy and being in range, but really...20% damage reduction is too good for those issues to impeded casters using fortify

So we arrived at a meta where fortify will be put in 90% of cases on a movespeed skill just to gain the benefit of the buff.

Sounds familiar ? We arrived exactly at where problems lied with CWDT and Reduced Mana.

Now was there a better solution ? Well, I agree it's tough to address point #2 with the class-specific things absent in PoE, but there definitely were many ways to avoid the first one. Could've just slapped implicit fortify on every non-movement melee skill or something like that.

The mandatory part really bothers me, as it's against the design GGG has promoted.

I always feel the best way to see if skill is mandatory by asking why would I NOT take this ?
well, there is zero reason to not use fortify as a melee
and there is very little reason to not use fortify as a caster unless you're using a wand. the damage mitigation fortify is providing is insane and the cost of it is very little.

wait, I meant to post this in closed beta feedback. fail :/

can a mod move this to cb feedback ?

To answer your question though: yes.

First off, what the Median XL guy thinks about defensive skills: http://www.diabloii.net/blog/comments/mad-prophecies-2-defensive-skills

TL;DR: if a defensive skill is mandatory then it adds no build diversity; if a defensive skill is NOT mandatory then it is useless.

I agree with Laz completely on this one.

That said, I'm not 100% sold that Fortify is a bad idea. I am 100% sold that if it is required as a final-build skill, then it kills build diversity, is horrible design, yada yada.

But if it's the type of thing were you absolutely need it when you first start doing high maps, but after a small eternity grinding you no longer require it because your defensive gear is teh awesomeness, then you just replace it with some other red support gem which adds more DPS, then that's a situation I wouldn't have a problem with.

Conclusion: if it's a stepping stone, that's Kool and the Gang, but if it's required even with perfect gear then that is just no bueno. Fortify needs to be designed and balanced for planned obsolescence, or it's no good for the game; it's either suboptimal from a perf-gear elitist standpoint, or it's a balance-wrecking abomination.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

First off, what the Median XL guy thinks about defensive skills: http://www.diabloii.net/blog/comments/mad-prophecies-2-defensive-skills

TL;DR: if a defensive skill is mandatory then it adds no build diversity; if a defensive skill is NOT mandatory then it is useless.

I agree with Laz completely on this one.

That said, I'm not 100% sold that Fortify is a bad idea. I am 100% sold that if it is required as a final-build skill, then it kills build diversity, is horrible design, yada yada.

But if it's the type of thing were you absolutely need it when you first start doing high maps, but after a small eternity grinding you no longer require it because your defensive gear is teh awesomeness, then you just replace it with some other red support gem which adds more DPS, then that's a situation I wouldn't have a problem with.

Conclusion: if it's a stepping stone, that's Kool and the Gang, but if it's required even with perfect gear then that is just no bueno. Fortify needs to be designed and balanced for planned obsolescence, or it's no good for the game; it's either suboptimal from a perf-gear elitist standpoint, or it's a balance-wrecking abomination.

that was a very good read

I agree with the premise- and in this case, I see fortify as mandatory. d3 dealt with melee problems the easy way- because of rigid class definitions that exist in d3, it just gave more reductions to every melee class.

unfortunately poe cant do that. GGG been trying to 'fix' melee for years and the flexible class of system of 'everyone can do everything' has really been the main factor (besides desync) in them still (imo) unable to find a satisfying solution.

now, to get back to the point of the 'best' items and fortify- in temp league, you usually cant get perfect items fast ( with which people faceroll permaleagues). fortify will get used a ton in temp leagues, I dont doubt it for a second. the way damage is in the beta...everyone will want more defenses, no matter the build. only bow/wand builds will not use it for obvious reasons.

now I want to address the premise in that article

I agree with it, in general sense- if damage output of monsters is low, defensive skills are useless. if they are high, they are mandatory.

there are of course, caveats- glass cannon do exist. but glass cannon completely dismiss defenses.
d3 for example- inferno on launch was mostly done with glass cannon ranged toons who died from a sneeze


but going back, our PoE, in the same beta, has a skill that is a good defensive skill, that is not mandatory and yet provides good deal of defense

the new arctic armour is in fact, such a skill. it will probably get overlooked but its a very legit defensive skill for 25% reservation.

grace is also in a pretty good place right now. yes most of these are 'auras', but nonetheless. there's a choice of going more offensive or defensive. there isn't a choice with fortify. you just grab it and use it. and if there isnt a choice, makes little sense to keep it as a gem

I would much rather Fortify have been implemented as a white gem aura with 0% reserve, which gives X% reduced damage taken but makes you deal 100% less damage outside Y area radius. It wouldn't matter whether casters could use it because they would still need to take the increased risk of being in melee range to use it.

Basically, it would be like the passive buff given to melee classes in other games, but shoehorned into the PoE class system in the least obtrusive way possible. You would just "opt in" to being a pure melee character through this aura.

To be honest, Fortify may have as well been white no reservation aura. Its not like you change your build to get Fortify. You just get it.

You bet your ass it's gonna be mandatory.

It's the same thing why the elemental damage in this game is obscene, they assume you are running purity auras and flasks.

I wish i was wrong, but if fortify was a way for melee to get more survival they wouldn't buff monster damage. 2h users will get shafted again, i can feel it.

And yes, i will play a 2h char because it is to me one of the most fun ways to play the game, even tho i am shooting myself in the foot because there are no alternatives like Saffels Frame or Rise of the Phoenix for a 2H user (lets not forget Aegis Aurora).

This time around i will try to get more creative with my defenses, but i share no illusion that elemental damage won't rekt my char in endgame.

Melee physical is mandatory for most melee builds as well.

It begs the question.. should all things be equal so that we can choose whatever we want and do great?

Is it not better for melee to have something only they can put to full use for great benefit and that they therefore would be happy to pick?