PvP Discussion (Interested in feedback from fellow players)
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I opened a LLD PvP Tournaments and Ladder discussion (for both standard and hardcore) in the following topic: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1281456
The PvP Discussion forum is barely visited, so since this forum is visited by almost EVERYONE, I would like to call the attention to people who might be interested in PvP and know your opinions about the idea presented in that topic, and if you are willing to participate in a User-Generated LLD Tournaments & Ladders. Hopefully this post can catch the eye of people who are PvP'ers and those who would eventually join PvP. |
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if it's worth anything, I'll write why I stay away from LLD.
I like to try anything Path Of Exile has to offer at least once (often a lot more), so I was doing sporadic PvP on all levels back in Open Beta, for pure fun. it literally wasn't about winning or losing, as it was about having fun and getting as many good match-ups as possible. well that, and I liked Greust's aggressive attitude. so naturally I tried the "new thing called PvP" when it officially became a thing. and I mostly regret I did. you see, PvP as a whole - and especially LLD (Low Level Dueling) - has become a "private club" of sorts. people with insane perfectly-corrupted and map-viable gear, who'll gladly knock every gust of "fun wind" right out of your sails in seconds, unless you have the same. now, I'm not a what-you-call "min-maxer". and that's ok because in PvE and even in Races, I don't go up against the uber-geared, super-no-lifing, ultra-efficient people directly. I can have my own fun. in LLD, I can't. LLD, is "have the cash (Exalts) or get the fuck out". or at least it was about a month ago when I gave up on it completely. now it's probably even worse. therefore please don't bring this out into General Discussion. you and I both know that players who aren't already living and breathing LLD 24/7, have nothing positive to look for, in LLD. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun | |
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I did LLD for a few weeks when it came out ... i manage to get in the top 10 for some time ... then i went down to top 25 .. then i gave up on it ...
I must agree with john. It's one thing that some skills and builds are far superior to almost all other... but the fact that ultimately the gear is what really matters .. and those with veeeeery good LLD specific gear are kings ... is unappealing for me. Don't get me wrong ... i'm all about gear hunting and min-maxing but in pvp ... it is not a good thing in my opinion So what I really want to see is LLD where everyone has a large variety of items ... but where everyone has the same access to the same items. I don't know .. i'm sure that many would disagree taht this won't be fun ... but it sure sounds fun to me ... on paper at least. Do you remember a while ago those races where you start with a chest next to you containing unique items specific and only obtainable in this race? Well i imagine something similar but in a LLD pvp ! "I'm going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain!!!!! Like a RAINBOW!" Last edited by KorgothBG on May 28, 2015, 2:05:11 PM
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Ok, thanks for your feedback and opinions. But what I see here is that you guys are mad at PvP because people who are exclusively dedicated to PvP are the kings of PvP?. Am I seeing something wrong here?. So, if a basketball player dedicates all his free time and puts a lot of effort into practicing and becoming a good basketball player, then it is unfair because the rest who dont dedicate as much time and heart to it are not better than him?. Whats wrong with this???
Thanks for your opinions anyways. :) |
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" let me put it this way: let's assume that every single time you pick up a basketball and go outside to throw it a bit just for fun, LeBron James would come up behind you and block, then trash-talk you a little bit, then dunk in your face. would you still have the urge to go outside and play? if you compare "PvP pros" with ultra-gear to NBA Players, well there should be "an NBA" where they play. a subset of "basketball" rather than the whole thing. and if I'm not part of "the NBA", I should still be able to play some basketball if I find it enjoyable, without any NBA Players coming in and ruining my fun. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun | |
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No Golden_Order... man .. what you actually see is people who dislike because players with godly gear win .. again there's nothing wrong with that ... but the actual build or actual player skills are falling behind ... you can't beat a godly geared player no matter how dedicated and good you are in PvP until you have a gear on par with his/hers.
Again .. there is nothing wrong with that ... but there isn't much fun with this situation either... The thing is that hack'n'slash aRPG always have this issue and they always will have it ... after all they are all about gear and leveling ... and in LLD you can scratch the leveling part .. so it's all about gear ... and when you don't really have a chance at LLD without investing tons of currency ( which 99% of the players don't have ) you can't really be good at it .. and if you can't be good at it it's not that fun at all. Ultimately you end up with 3 groups of LLD players : Group 1. Those guys with great LLD gear who win all matches vs the players from the other groups but because of that don't really care about those wins .. they mean close to nothing and they become boring pretty fast. They also make good fights with other players in that group which is fun. The are on top so they have that fuzzy feeling of being one of the best. Group 2. Those guys who really want to be in Group 1. To be one of the best! But they can't because they lack the gear ( and some of them - the skills ). They have 50:50 win:loose ratio vs players of the same group and no wins vs the guys from Group 1. When they win against a guy from the same group they are not very excited by it, but when they loose they are very disappointed. When they loose from a Group 1 player they are utterly discouraged. And when they win against a guy from Group 3 they don't care at all (pfft that scrub ... gg easy ). They generally don't feel good about the PvP .. because they want to be good .. they try to be good ... but they can't achieve it(read afford it). Those players eventually give up on the LLD. Group 3. New players who want to do some LLD for the fun of it. They loose almost all matches vs the guys from group 2 and all matches vs the guys from group 3. They have 50:50 win:loose ratio vs the other guys in group 3. The matches vs the players in the same group are fun and they have good time. The matches vs the guys from group 2 are often awful experience because the players from group 2 are desperate to win and often act like jerks. The matches vs the elite group 1 guys is just ... crushing. Becuase the guys in group 3 are doing pvp for the fun of it they quickly grew tired of it ... and the matches vs the players from the other groups doesn't help at all so they quit the LLD pretty fast. EDIT : Well tl;dr ... what John said... "I'm going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain!!!!! Like a RAINBOW!" Last edited by KorgothBG on May 28, 2015, 3:36:34 PM
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Good points. So what do you guys propose that can be done to improve the PvP community in PoE?.
Maybe split LLD'ers into 3 categories?. Create PvP leagues? like they do in Soccer (European Football). Group 1: Premier League [100 duelers] (They can only fight duelers from the same Premier league) Group 2: Second League [Unlimited # of duelers] (They can only fight duelers from the same Second league) Group 3: No Competitive League [Unlimited # of duelers] (They can only fight other casual duelers from this group) Every 3 months or so, there is a new "Reset" in which the bottom duelers from the Premier League get dropped to the Second League, and the top duelers of the Second League get promoted to the Premier League. We are talking that in the Premier League there can be space for 100 duelers only, and in the Second League an unlimited amount. The important thing is that the top 50 players on the second league after 3 months get promoted, and the 50 bottom duelers on the Premier league get demoted. Group 3 belongs to the casuals who dont like to compete and just want to have fun dueling each other, so there shouldnt be points or anything on this group to prevent experts and top duelers from getting any motivation from participating in this group, since there will be no reward, pts etc for winning on Group 3. When you start dueling you can decide whether your PvP character can be "Competitive" or "Non-Competitive": If you choose the second option you will be placed in Group 3 and duel for fun. If you choose the first option you will be placed in Group 2 and start dueling for fun and to compete. Eventually after 3 months (if you finish on the top 50) get promoted to the elite Premier League. So, the 50 bottom players of the Premier League get demoted to the Group 2/Second League. This is just an idea. What do you guys think?. Last edited by Golden_Order on May 28, 2015, 6:32:07 PM
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that sounds more reasonable, even though you still need to figure out a solution for non-PvP-only characters. meaning PvE characters who enter PvP.
still, you'd have to take a step similar to what KorgothBG suggested in his first post: a clean-slate, equal-start for everyone (or at least everyone in a specific group). currently, the "entry gate" to the "premier league" is one made of PoE Currency, a lot more than of skill. now don't get me wrong: a lot of those guys have just crazy reflexes, and strategy, and knowledge of game mechanics. that's why I really did enjoy watching the Invitationals with Willy/Greendude's commentary. but no matter how skilled you are - you simply will not have any chance of beating someone who threw their tons of Exalts on utterly how-the-fuck-is-this-level-28 gear, nor will such an encounter be fun for any of you. hence, the "gear threshold". it steadily goes up with time, and many skilled players just don't pass it. remove the 'threshold - even in the "premier league" - and you instantly expose PvP to a much wider audience of people ready to compete using their raw playing skill, rather than using their trading ones. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun | |
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Yes Golden_Order your suggestion sure is a step in the right direction and addresses some of the issues of the Low Level PvP. Matching up with players with similar skill and gear to you will produce much more interesting and fun duels for everyone. Now the problem with the "gear threshold" as mentioned by John still remains but to be honest with you it's just something that is hard to avoid in a game from this sub-genre and besides the idea i've explained ( poorly ) in my first post i don't really see a way around it. Perhaps there are other solutions ... but at least i can't see them at the moment ... and i'm not too sure if my suggestion will work out well either.
Let me tell you this ... i've played tons of hack'n'slash aRPGs for the past 20 or so years and the PvP was never really good in this sub-genre. It got better that's true ... and as always it's fun to make a duel or two from time to time but it gets boring pretty fast. And the reason in my opinion is simple - what makes a good duel, and fun match ( and im not talking just PoE here i'm talking everything )? It's the good balance between the participants. You and your opponent must have the same chances to win and the result of the duel should be entirely in your hands. I'm not talking about perfect balance of course because that's impossible to achieve and if it happens it will be pretty damn boring. But since this is a gear-oriented sub-genre you can't really have that ( or ... you can ... with my suggestion ) and that often leads to the situation where yo win because you have better gear and that is not really that satisfying or you loose and you are bitter because you don't have good enough gear ... and no one really wins in this situation. Imagine this (because basketball was brought up here already) - a basketball match with the usual basketball teams but team A have their left hands tied to their backs and their basketball ring is 3 times larger hence it's a lot more easier for the other team to score. Would such a match be interesting to watch? "I'm going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain!!!!! Like a RAINBOW!" Last edited by KorgothBG on May 29, 2015, 2:54:50 AM
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What they could do is similar to an other mmo I played is to make some gear that is neither good or bad but has some extra stats for pvp. And you would get this gear with pvp points you would get by farming pvp.
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