Slight alteration to the exp-penalty to make the game seem more rewarding

The only difference between losing 10% and not gaining 10% until it's "paid" is that one can be abused while the other keeps adding up.

The current penalty is fine.

"

Natharias wrote:

The only difference between losing 10% and not gaining 10% until it's "paid" is that one can be abused while the other keeps adding up.

The current penalty is fine.

Yep, its not the worst idea I have ever heard, but it does allow for unneeded abuse.

"

Not easier, but less shitty.

If making it "less shitty" in turn makes it "easier" then it still is making it easier. Stop trying to twist the words around to make it seem like the penalty is a bad thing, it isn't. You didn't address a single point I actually made, mainly being the fact Chris just said the XP Penalty is fine.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

The only difference between losing 10% and not gaining 10% until it's "paid" is that one can be abused while the other keeps adding up.

The current penalty is fine.

Yep, its not the worst idea I have ever heard, but it does allow for unneeded abuse.

"

Not easier, but less shitty.

If making it "less shitty" in turn makes it "easier" then it still is making it easier. Stop trying to twist the words around to make it seem like the penalty is a bad thing, it isn't. You didn't address a single point I actually made, mainly being the fact Chris just said the XP Penalty is fine.

I have no need for using my "final weapon": the words ;) Facts are sufficients. And the fact are that if "i" die in a level between 70 and 80, i will regain the exp lossed in (just for saying), 20 minutes. If i die in a level between 80 and 90, i will loss that fixed PERCENTUAL amount of exp, but they are a lot more points than before, so i will regain them in, say, 40 minutes. And if i die over lvl 90? One hour.

At my home, this is NOT a FIXED loss, this is an INCREASING loss. So, this is crap

But i assume that the crew of geniuses won't allow a decreasing exp loss (10% until lvl 70, 8% between lvl 70 and 80, 6% between 80 and 90, 5% past 90) even under torture ;)

"

And if i die over lvl 90? One hour.

How exactly do you know that?

The reason why I ask is I don't think you have a single character 90 or over. You fail to address the fact that many changes in 2.0 not only make the death penalty more fair, but less punishing thru other means of adjustment rather then raw numbers.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

And if i die over lvl 90? One hour.

How exactly do you know that?

The reason why I ask is I don't think you have a single character 90 or over. You fail to address the fact that many changes in 2.0 not only make the death penalty more fair, but less punishing thru other means of adjustment rather then raw numbers.

I have never "measured" the times, even those of my chars (lvl 82 max). But they are increasing ones, because 10% remains 10%, but exp needed raises every level, and a lot. After all, the regaining times vary (is this the right word? sorry i'm not english mother tongue) from exile to exile, from map to map. But if we add the increasing exp needed for each lvl up more, and the percentual loss that remains fixed at 10%, so we have that exp loss is heavier and heavier as the levels go up. From here, my example of 20-40-60 minutes. They may be 15-25-45, as may be 50-100-200. The fact that remains, is that in a game with stupid high damages (i have read just yesterday from an experienced player, Victordoom, that some end game mobs hits for 6k physical in one blow) an exp penalty shouldn't be present at all. Or, if the main/bigger/heavier problem of this game (=Chris Wilson himself), WANTS AT ALL COSTS us to suffer a death penalty, this should be a decreasing one. Because losing 10% at lvl 60 ISN'T the same thing than losing 10% at lvl 80 (i have died at 80 so i know what i say)

Edit: i don't really care of the adjustments in 2.0 like lockstep (good) or other things: as long as the exp needed for lvl up will remain stupidly high and time wasting (not consuming... wasting) as now, a death penalty must NOT be a fixed percentual of a level

"

I have never "measured" the times, even those of my chars (lvl 82 max). But they are increasing ones, because 10% remains 10%, but exp needed raises every level, and a lot. After all, the regaining times vary (is this the right word? sorry i'm not english mother tongue) from exile to exile, from map to map. But if we add the increasing exp needed for each lvl up more, and the percentual loss that remains fixed at 10%, so we have that exp loss is heavier and heavier as the levels go up. From here, my example of 20-40-60 minutes. They may be 15-25-45, as may be 50-100-200. The fact that remains, is that in a game with stupid high damages (i have read just yesterday from an experienced player, Victordoom, that some end game mobs hits for 6k physical in one blow) an exp penalty shouldn't be present at all. Or, if the main/bigger/heavier problem of this game (=Chris Wilson himself), WANTS AT ALL COSTS us to suffer a death penalty, this should be a decreasing one. Because losing 10% at lvl 60 ISN'T the same thing than losing 10% at lvl 80 (i have died at 80 so i know what i say)

Edit: i don't really care of the adjustments in 2.0 like lockstep (good) or other things: as long as the exp needed for lvl up will remain stupidly high and time wasting (not consuming... wasting) as now, a death penalty must NOT be a fixed percentual of a level

See I have a problem with people saying or thinking they understand what goes on in levels above where they've previously reached. TBH level 82 is a joke, in the current game you can level to 80 fairly quickly, without ever doing maps. This will only increase with the addition of act 4 an the amount of "farmable" higher level zones. To put it in perspective all of act 2 in merciless is 60+ (except for the starting zone, which is 59, although technically thats an act 1 zone in a way)

You are right, the statement of the XP penalty becomes more punishing the more you level is correct, but your character also gains in strength as well. You arguement is nothing new and nothing that wasn't just discussed 2 months ago, right around the time Chris did his Q\A that I linked before.

IDC really care what you read from another player about 6k damage spike from something. The game has things that will kill you if you don't react or have proper defenses, without it we might as well be playing D3 where not only are you basically not punished for deing, but each class has a passive to "cheat death" and many have items as well.

The XP penality while being a flat % actually scales quite nicely, it encourages players to play smarter and safer rather then just running thru like you are a god. You aren't and wraeclast will prove that if you don't plan accordingly.


Your edit is is the whole reason why discussions like this get no where. If you read the previous 70+ page thread, yes you heard me right the #1 justification to try to get the penality removed or reduced was desync, now that there is an option to play without desync, that excuse is gone.

Now that shotgun mechanics are being removed, that excuse is gone.

Now that there are higher level zones outside of maps, that excuse is gone.

Now that there are higher level maps, that excuse is gone.


Until we get a very large playerbase testing in beta we can't tell what the "next" excuse will be for reducing the penalty, but I can tell you currently they've made tons of improvements to the problems mentioned in the past and this discussion won't net any results until after 2.0.

I can appreciate feedback from less experienced players, but you are talking about problems way beyond your scope of experience, this happens much more then it should when players are giving feedback and it only hurts the game to post feedback about things you haven't personally tested or done.

If you think you can regain lost experience from a death in an hour if you're 90+, you obviously have never been 90+. 92 is the highest character I've had and it takes me a lot longer than an hour to make up for a death. A 78 map doesn't give much XP when you get high levels. I can only imagine how much time you are set back when you die at 95+.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

I have never "measured" the times, even those of my chars (lvl 82 max). But they are increasing ones, because 10% remains 10%, but exp needed raises every level, and a lot. After all, the regaining times vary (is this the right word? sorry i'm not english mother tongue) from exile to exile, from map to map. But if we add the increasing exp needed for each lvl up more, and the percentual loss that remains fixed at 10%, so we have that exp loss is heavier and heavier as the levels go up. From here, my example of 20-40-60 minutes. They may be 15-25-45, as may be 50-100-200. The fact that remains, is that in a game with stupid high damages (i have read just yesterday from an experienced player, Victordoom, that some end game mobs hits for 6k physical in one blow) an exp penalty shouldn't be present at all. Or, if the main/bigger/heavier problem of this game (=Chris Wilson himself), WANTS AT ALL COSTS us to suffer a death penalty, this should be a decreasing one. Because losing 10% at lvl 60 ISN'T the same thing than losing 10% at lvl 80 (i have died at 80 so i know what i say)

Edit: i don't really care of the adjustments in 2.0 like lockstep (good) or other things: as long as the exp needed for lvl up will remain stupidly high and time wasting (not consuming... wasting) as now, a death penalty must NOT be a fixed percentual of a level

See I have a problem with people saying or thinking they understand what goes on in levels above where they've previously reached. TBH level 82 is a joke, in the current game you can level to 80 fairly quickly, without ever doing maps. This will only increase with the addition of act 4 an the amount of "farmable" higher level zones. To put it in perspective all of act 2 in merciless is 60+ (except for the starting zone, which is 59, although technically thats an act 1 zone in a way)

You are right, the statement of the XP penalty becomes more punishing the more you level is correct, but your character also gains in strength as well. You arguement is nothing new and nothing that wasn't just discussed 2 months ago, right around the time Chris did his Q\A that I linked before.

IDC really care what you read from another player about 6k damage spike from something. The game has things that will kill you if you don't react or have proper defenses, without it we might as well be playing D3 where not only are you basically not punished for deing, but each class has a passive to "cheat death" and many have items as well.

The XP penality while being a flat % actually scales quite nicely, it encourages players to play smarter and safer rather then just running thru like you are a god. You aren't and wraeclast will prove that if you don't plan accordingly.


Your edit is is the whole reason why discussions like this get no where. If you read the previous 70+ page thread, yes you heard me right the #1 justification to try to get the penality removed or reduced was desync, now that there is an option to play without desync, that excuse is gone.

Now that shotgun mechanics are being removed, that excuse is gone.

Now that there are higher level zones outside of maps, that excuse is gone.

Now that there are higher level maps, that excuse is gone.


Until we get a very large playerbase testing in beta we can't tell what the "next" excuse will be for reducing the penalty, but I can tell you currently they've made tons of improvements to the problems mentioned in the past and this discussion won't net any results until after 2.0.

I can appreciate feedback from less experienced players, but you are talking about problems way beyond your scope of experience, this happens much more then it should when players are giving feedback and it only hurts the game to post feedback about things you haven't personally tested or done.

It's not how much i, you, others are experienced. It's not reaching lvl 90 that give the right to report a personal gaming experience. And from what i have read from other players, i am certainly not the only one that some times dies by shitty mechanics. Many times on these pages i have read of rips (hard core or soft core) of guys dying with lvl85-90 or even 93-94 in maps 15 levels below, from chimerals or rares that were hyper hasting an entire screen fulled of mobs. I myself have my lvl 82 that is a tank (even in the arena there are some players that can't manage to defeat me no matter how much they try because of my defenses), and building a tank it's already a form of playing safe... plus i play safe indeed, but shitty mechanics (not desync) are forever there.... and is THIS the reason for progressively reduce the penalty
Now, let's read what the friend after you has wrote:

" 92 is the highest character I've had and it takes me a lot longer than an hour to make up for a death"

Does it seems fair to make people LOSE and WASTE all this time? -.-

"

Natharias wrote:

The only difference between losing 10% and not gaining 10% until it's "paid" is that one can be abused while the other keeps adding up.

The current penalty is fine.

Abused how?

If you have stacking of a max of ten 10% penalties and you get not exp when you are paying them off, then the system is identical to the system we have currently. The only difference is that you don't get essentially free deaths right after leveling.

The fact that I suggested that there be no stacking, or low stacking is to account for the fact that being in a lot of exp-debt can feel higly de-motivating. With maybe 4-6 stacks, there would propably be no difference in practice to the current system since few players end up dying that many times in a short amount of time.

The small exp gain you get while in debt, maybe 1-3%, is psychological. It is so small that it would take ages to level that way, but it feels like you are making progress in any case.

I have no intrest in making the penalty smaller, it could even be bigger from my perspective, but merely to change how that penalty feels for the players.

And since this would really have minimal balance effects, depending on the number of stackings, I do not see why this could not be discussed while the beta is still on progress.

And, yes Chris did say that he thinks the exp penalty is fine, so there is propably little change of this going through. I do think however that is it wort at least discussing these sort of alternatives, since maybe we could come up with a perspective GGG hasn't thought of yet.

"

Wispo wrote:

It's not how much i, you, others are experienced. It's not reaching lvl 90 that give the right to report a personal gaming experience. And from what i have read from other players, i am certainly not the only one that some times dies by shitty mechanics. Many times on these pages i have read of rips (hard core or soft core) of guys dying with lvl85-90 or even 93-94 in maps 15 levels below, from chimerals or rares that were hyper hasting an entire screen fulled of mobs. I myself have my lvl 82 that is a tank (even in the arena there are some players that can't manage to defeat me no matter how much they try because of my defenses), and building a tank it's already a form of playing safe... plus i play safe indeed, but shitty mechanics (not desync) are forever there.... and is THIS the reason for progressively reduce the penalty
Now, let's read what the friend after you has wrote:

" 92 is the highest character I've had and it takes me a lot longer than an hour to make up for a death"

Does it seems fair to make people LOSE and WASTE all this time? -.-

This was feedback forums, now I guess we have suggestions, so if your suggestion is to change it rather then based off of your experience that is different. Part of the reason why I disliked the merge of the forums is from my perspective its hard to tell who is giving feedback vs what I would consider to be a suggestion. I am sure some of the devs also have a hard time figuring out the difference.

"and from what I have read from other players"

Ok, read all you want they could be lieing piles of crap and you are going to blindly agree with what they say? Does the game have punishing mechanics, you bet, but its necessary in order to keep people's builds in check.

Almost every complaint ever addressed about XP penalty is being addressed in 2.0. Please just let this topic die, until people actually have time to give feedback on the changes.

Desync is not "forever there" with lockstep you can play with a mode that is desync free, if you don't have a suitable connection to play with lockstep, IMO "tough shit" people have dealt with desync in HC leagues for over 2 years now (basically 3) so to say it isn't fair is completely bullshit, people get to level 100 in HC, so its quite possible to do the same in SC.

He actually isn't my "friend", but I do tent to agree with a lot of what mark has to say. You are looking at the "loss" from one perspective only which is I lost on hour of gameplay or 2 hours or whatever set amount it takes you to recover that XP, even OP's suggestion won't return that time, only prevent you from having to spend MORE then that time if you have deaths over and over again.

You gain stuff constantly while you are playing, whether it be small currency, big currency, good items, bad items, items that can sell, you are gaining stuff other then XP while playing so your time spent is not "lost" it might be "less efficient" if you die, but death should have a meaning in this game.

Again I cant emphasize enough that in beta (or Act4 aka PoE 2.0) there are many changes that improve the situation to make the flat 10% not hurt as much, to make deaths not as spiky, to make leveling up to level 90 easier. Which is why I seriously urge you and anyone on this thread to revisit the idea, after you've experienced it when it goes live.

"

And, yes Chris did say that he thinks the exp penalty is fine, so there is propably little change of this going through. I do think however that is it wort at least discussing these sort of alternatives, since maybe we could come up with a perspective GGG hasn't thought of yet.

This has been discussed many times before, both after and before that announcement, both after and before the announcement of lockstep and other changes that were huge complaints about the XP penalty, this isn't something that will be changed for Act 4 addition, so why not wait until you can experience the content before you start suggesting changes? Its not worth discussing at this point because the vast majority of complaints are ones addressed in the beta and act 4 changes, without being able to see if that is enough you are just "spitballing" ideas for a problem that probably won't even be around.