Trading for Newbies

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I disagree completely and its not about "taking it personally". Its not about feelings either. It is about ethics and integrity and respect which are crucial keys to success in almost ANY business. If you think its ethical to walk into wal-mart and see an item that is obviously priced incorrectly and attempt to purchase it for that price, I think you need to study ethics. If you think taking advantage of ignorance is how reputable people and businesses conduct themselves, you need to do a little more studying in business. Business is the absolute worse analogy you can use when discussing the market place place in this game. Frankly, you will not be in business very long if you take advantage of people. As far as opportunity goes, there is a line between being opportunistic and predatory. If you want to discuss business aspect of this, I can show 100 successful business that are more successful by not taking advantage of an ignorant customer for ever one trying to take'em for all their worth. Generally and in most cases what probably occurs is the people taking advantage of the opportunities will never do business with the people they rip off ever again. Comparing these opportunistic people to businesses is not very relevant here and in fact hurts your argument to use "it's business" as valid excuse to behave this way.

Please don't insult me by implying that i know nothing about business or how to act when trading. It seems your knowledge about how business is actually conducted between two individuals in the real world is rather limited. As someone who has built a business dealing with individuals in the real world i can tell you this: It is not offensive, immoral or wrong to negotiate with people. I negotiate with people all the time and people negotiate with me. It comes with the territory of my business and if it wasn't part of my business model, i would not be successful.

Your definition of "respect", "ethics" and "right and wrong" are extremely abstract and are clearly skewed by your personal experience whether you want to admit it or not. Just because you are offended by something doesn't mean the next guy is.

The real disconnect here is that you are attempting to compare an established modern day business with a brand to a single person bartering in a primitive free market economy. This argument has no validity. Corporations and small businesses have overhead, inventory costs, regulations, taxes and the like which in turn give the goods or services they sell an artificial "floor" or minimum. Nothing exists in this game comparable to that. In PoE, the only measurable resource (or sunk cost other than purchase price) is time and time can't technically be given an absolute value because it's value varies from person to person.

Furthermore, i am in no position to haggle a dozen eggs at Walmart because of the reasons listed above, as well as the fact that the market is competitively priced. The price of a dozen eggs in a certain area is widely known and must be competitive. The price of an oddball ring for example with +int +str +dex may not "known" or easily estimated because they are thinly traded and substitutes are not readily available or indexed therefore allowing wiggle room for negotiations.

Also, you are horribly, horribly mistaken if you think people can't thrive in a business environment where people are taken advantage on a consistent basis. You have your blinders on big time buddy. Look at any transactional modern day business ie. Solar Panel Sales, Cash Advances, Car Sales etc. I could go on for days.

Finally, nothing in this game has a set value. As others have said, if the seller is willing to sell below the true value then why is that not ok? How do you know the sellers true motivation behind his buy out price or what he is willing to sell for? You don't. If someone wants to sell a 1ex ring for 10chaos because he needs liquidity quickly, you are only hurting yourself by offering more than the seller is asking for. How is that in anyway more "ethical"?

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joebagz wrote:

Please don't insult me by implying that i know nothing about business or how to act when trading. It seems your knowledge about how business is actually conducted between two individuals in the real world is rather limited. As someone who has built a business dealing with individuals in the real world i can tell you this: It is not offensive, immoral or wrong to negotiate with people. I negotiate with people all the time and people negotiate with me. It comes with the territory of my business and if it wasn't part of my business model, i would not be successful.

I think if you offer someone $1,000 for an item that's worth a million, 99% of the time the other party will not take you serious and if you you think that's "negotiation" then I cant imagine how much business transactions you've been involved in, if any. You do not need a huge background in business to understand this. I also think people who spam solicitations and non-starter offers are the reason most business have a "no solicitation' sign on their doors.

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Your definition of "respect", "ethics" and "right and wrong" are extremely abstract and are clearly skewed by your personal experience whether you want to admit it or not. Just because you are offended by something doesn't mean the next guy is.

I beat back your straw man the first time. This is not about being offended. Objecting to unethical, disrespectful people is not "being offended".

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The real disconnect here is that you are attempting to compare an established modern day business with a brand to a single person bartering in a primitive free market economy. This argument has no validity. Corporations and small businesses have overhead, inventory costs, regulations, taxes and the like which in turn give the goods or services they sell an artificial "floor" or minimum. Nothing exists in this game comparable to that. In PoE, the only measurable resource (or sunk cost other than purchase price) is time and time can't technically be given an absolute value because it's value varies from person to person.

Wait a minute. Review this thread and see who interjected business into this discussion. I stopped reading this paragraph after the first sentence because the conclusion is based on an incorrect premise. You compared this to business not me and I went to great lengths to tell you business is not the best source for an argument and as you pointed out, only business that generally considered nefarious behave this way. Its absurd you chastise me for comparing this to business when it was you who interjected the subject.

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Furthermore, i am in no position to haggle a dozen eggs at Walmart because of the reasons listed above, as well as the fact that the market is competitively priced. The price of a dozen eggs in a certain area is widely known and must be competitive. The price of an oddball ring for example with +int +str +dex may not "known" or easily estimated because they are thinly traded and substitutes are not readily available or indexed therefore allowing wiggle room for negotiations.

See you want to bring the discussion into the more subjective and grey areas of pricing which is not what I'm discussing and I think you know this. I accept in many cases prices can be ambigious and tough to tell. This is not the types transactions I'm talking about what I am talking about is the blatantly obvious rip-off's people try to perpetuate and you trying to validate as "business". Further, you conflate this blatant "opportunism" with negotiations. I'm not talking about trying to get some for cheaper than what is listed. I'm talking about looking for the ignorant teenager and exploiting it for your own personal gain and bother a whole host of players while you do it with spam.

The problem you present here is the accessibility to the market place is limited or difficult which breeds greed and exploitation. You have no problems taking advantage of this which is your prerogative just as it's mine to say that is not very ethical or respectable practice.

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Also, you are horribly, horribly mistaken if you think people can't thrive in a business environment where people are taken advantage on a consistent basis. You have your blinders on big time buddy. Look at any transaction modern day business ie. Solar Panel Sales, Cash Advances, Car Sales etc. I could go on for days.

You again miss the point. Your disconnect is you think my comments about success and thriving is all about profit. You equivocate success with how much profit you make. Success in this game is not all about profit and is why your, not my, interjection of business horrible. Incidentally a great many people who play a hack and slash game does not view getting the most value out of in game items their definition of being successful in the game. This thread is not about how to make digital currency in POE because as I've pointed out success for most people is not about maximizing value on in game items.

Ironically you bring up business again after chastising me about something you've interjected yourself.

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Finally, nothing in this game has a set value. As others have said, if the seller is willing to sell below the true value then why is that not ok?

I bring up the "friend" dilemma you would face that demonstrates what the problem is. Am I correct to assume you would have no objection to exploiting an ignorant friend. I'm certain you would not because he would not be your friend for very long. I'll bring up another example too that goes to the heart of it. A car salesmen sells you a flawed vehicle. You were willing to buy it ignorant of this flaw. I will not for a minute believe you would feel you were not taken advantage of. Keep mind the point is not that its flawed but you were ignorant of the fact it was flawed when you bought it, similar to the way some people exploit ignorance of market place in this game. The flaw being a poorly priced item.

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How do you know the sellers true motivation behind his buy out price or what he is willing to sell for? You don't. If someone wants to sell a 1ex ring for 10chaos because he needs liquidity quickly, you are only hurting yourself by offering more than the seller is asking for. How is that in anyway more "ethical"?

Transparency. Simply ask why is he selling it so cheap. If he is aware of the value the ethical concerns are moot. If he is unaware of the price and you say I think its worth this much and I'll buy it for this....which is still leaves you room to profit, you haven't been harmed. However, it seems ethical to you to harm the ignorant person as much as you can because even if the person is ignorant he still lost significant value where as if you pay a little extra, you've lost nothing but just made a smaller gain. If you view this game as a business simulation where you win if you get all the currency then I think you missed the point of the game. I also think its disturbing that you think you hurt yourself by being honest and forth right with someone while still making a profit in a video game. Sure, you need to make currency in this game but in my opinion that should not be your chief concern when you interact with people in game. If that is where you get your enjoyment, that is your prerogative but It will not stop me from speaking up about this type of behavior so others are aware of your attempts to exploit their ignorance and it has nothing to do with me being offended and everything to do with trying to help people not get exploited and having a better experience in the market place. It would not be fun to me to low-ball people. It would not be fun to rip someone off of a high value item. That may be fun to you but I would imagine in general that's not the way most people want to trade in this game.

Yes, because a .1% offer to buyout is usually the norm for a "lowball", seems logical. You might want to take a look into topics such as standard deviation and the bell curve.

Or, it's quite possible you are personally experiencing this rare phenomenon due to your listing of 20c vendor rares in your shop.

But yet, you say you are not offended by any of the comments here despite your clear stance on the subject of "ethics". Which seems to be clearly going places due to the constant effort to again, relate it back to a real world example which is, again, moot.

Let me explain to you why there is no need for transparency in this game which you seem to not understand. Again this is not real life.



In Path of Exile. What you see. Is what you get.



(There is no +10 int mod that is hidden from me on my shiny sword. There is no faulty engine waiting for me 90days after i buy my used car and drive that junk heap off the lot.)

Why do we need transparency? Everything is disclosed and is right in front of you. "Oh no I sold my legacy Goldrims because i didn't see it had 24% IIQ mod", "forgot to read". "I should have respected the only barrier to entry to the market in PoE, KNOWLEDGE". What else matters? What other risk is there outside of being ignorant to what you are selling or buying or being simply careless?

-There is no risk of the item being lost naturally outside of human error(excluding bugs), therefore no need for insurance. If insurance existed it would be useless because items are not restored.

-There is no risk of the item changing state that is not universal (i.e. items do not deteriorate)


Let me ask you this, if an auction house existed, would you pm a seller specifically asking him why he is selling his item at 4c when everyone else is selling at 10c? Would that trade also be another ethical hardship for you or would you trade without question then, implying he was aware of the discrepancy in price due to the "increased transparency" provided by the ingame buy-sell index? If that were your friend, would you second guess as well?



Sorry if 99% of the players here view a trade as a transaction and not an ethical debate. Get your head out of a book and smell the coffee. This game is balanced around trading. Your success and ability to progress is based on knowledge. When you play you acquire resources, gear and orbs. You use your knowledge to turn those illiquid assets (gear) into more liquid assets (orbs) to have the ability and the knowledge to purchase better illiquid assets (gear) in order to facilitate progress in the game and achieve whatever your goals are. This is the reality. GGG has openly said that they want the game to be this way and myself and other players like this game because of this principle.



Here are 3 real trading tips (not ethics exercises) for newbies looking to buy gear:

1. Understand the "true cost" of the gear you are looking to buy (don't neglect factoring in the extra cost crafting links/rolling & coloring sockets if needed)

2. Utilize the A3 Merciless message board to get an idea of the current spread for currency buy/sell rates if you are looking to trade orbs. The margin on lesser value orbs is always greater. More liquid and exchanged currencies (chaos/fusings) margins are typically tighter.

3. Don't ever unconsciously imply that you are bothering someone if they don't answer you. This sounds strange but I've resurrected a lot of trades and got a lot of players' attention this way. Action facilitates reaction and sometimes messages are simply missed.



The real world nor Wareclast does not exist in a textbook. Nothing trumps experience. There are no failures, only lessons.

I also find it rather ironic and humorous that you attempt to belittle and shame me by implying i lowball people and they "should stay away from me" when you are the one selling stanley steamer gear for outrageous prices to people. Please explain how that makes sense. There's nothing transparent about implying your gear is worth what you are listing there in your thread. I am glad another poster brought it up. Almost like a reverse lowball eh, Billy? Could this all be a complex scam to make the less knowledgeable players think you are a white knight for the community when you are really just shadiest character in this thread? Or are you just not knowledgeable about what you are selling? That is dangerous you know.

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joebagz wrote:

Yes, because a .1% offer to buyout is usually the norm for a "lowball", seems logical. You might want to take a look into topics such as standard deviation and the bell curve.

Or, it's quite possible you are personally experiencing this rare phenomenon due to your listing of 20c vendor rares in your shop.

You know if you could make an argument with out having to take a personal jab at me, I could take your words more seriously. The fact of the matter is you can not find fault with my argument so you have to attack the arguer. Its commonly called an ad homeinem.

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But yet, you say you are not offended by any of the comments here despite your clear stance on the subject of "ethics". Which seems to be clearly going places due to the constant effort to again, relate it back to a real world example which is, again, moot.

You still not addressing the argument I've made and continue to persist with this made up belief that I'm only speaking out because I'm offended. This is commonly called a straw man. You really should read the thread, I'm not the one relating it to the real world here.

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Let me explain to you why there is no need for transparency in this game which you seem to not understand. Again this is not real life.

You can but the reality is you think integrity, ethics and respect stop because "its a game".

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(There is no +10 int mod that is hidden from me on my shiny sword. There is no faulty engine waiting for me 90days after i buy my used car and drive that junk heap off the lot.)

You missed the point. A significant piece of information was hidden in order to complete the transaction.

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Why do we need transparency? Everything is disclosed and is right in front of you. "Oh no I sold my legacy Goldrims because i didn't see it had 24% IIQ mod", "forgot to read". "I should have respected the only barrier to entry to the market in PoE, KNOWLEDGE". What else matters? What other risk is there outside of being ignorant to what you are selling or buying or being simply careless?

If you operate under the premise its completely ethical to keep vital information hidden when involved in a transaction then I think you have to be open minded enough that some people are going to question your ethics, especially when its discovered you took advantage of someone. If you get offended by someone objecting to unethical behavior, I'm sorry, that's just the way it goes.

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Let me ask you this, if an auction house existed, would you pm a seller specifically asking him why he is selling his item at 4c when everyone else is selling at 10c? Would that trade also be another ethical hardship for you or would you trade without question then, implying he was aware of the discrepancy in price due to the "increased transparency" provided by the ingame buy-sell index? If that were your friend, would you second guess as well?

I think there is too many variables with your hypothetical to answer it accurately. Generally, If i was interested, I would tell them I was interested, ask if the price was accurate and whether or not he was looking for quick sale because the price was extremely good.

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Sorry if 99% of the players here view a trade as a transaction and not an ethical debate.

I'm sorry this is really bad. I have not advocated anyone "debate" ethics when involved in a trade.

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When you play you acquire resources, gear and orbs. You use your knowledge to turn those illiquid assets (gear) into more liquid assets (orbs) to have the ability and the knowledge to purchase better illiquid assets (gear) in order to facilitate progress in the game and achieve whatever your goals are. This is the reality. GGG has openly said that they want the game to be this way and myself and other players like this game because of this principle.

And this has nothing to do with what I've said.

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The real world nor Wareclast does not exist in a textbook. Nothing trumps experience. There are no failures, only lessons.

Is this another failed attempt at an ad hominem while completely ignoring the unethical behavior I've written about? Or is it a straw man suggesting that I'm coming from an academic perspective rather than an ethical one. Hint: Ethics are not academic for honorable and respectable people.

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I also find it rather ironic and humorous that you attempt to belittle and shame me by implying i lowball people and they "should stay away from me" when you are the one selling stanley steamer gear for outrageous prices to people.

I've addressed this before. You have no idea what I sell things for so your sense of irony is based on faulty information to which you do not possess and is yet again, attacking me instead of my argument, which as explained, is an ad hominem. You presented your own behavior into the discussion, if you did not want that behavior to be criticized maybe you should not have used it in your argument. If you feel shame or belittled because I called behavior unethical I think you need to take a step back and understand that when you present unethical behavior it will can and will get criticized.

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Please explain how that makes sense. There's nothing transparent about implying your gear is worth what you are listing there in your thread. I am glad another poster brought it up. Almost like a reverse lowball eh, Billy? Could this all be a complex scam to make the less knowledgeable players think you are a white knight for the community when you are really just shadiest character in this thread? Or are you just not knowledgeable about what you are selling? That is dangerous you know.

I've addressed this before. You have no idea what I sell things for so your sense of conclusions are based on faulty information to which you do not possess and is yet again, attacking me instead of my argument, which as explained, is an ad hominem. You presented your own behavior into the discussion, if you did not want that behavior to be criticized maybe you should not have used it in your argument. You can talk about my behavior all you want, I'm not the one advocating that its appropriate to rip people off. I do not exploit peoples ignorance and if someone presents me with an offer with reasoning behind it, I can most certainly lower my price. With that said, the prices in my shop have nothing to do with your unethical behavior, even if I am the shadiest character in the thread. You like a few other people cherry pick a few items and think you have a "gotcha" moment. Yep, you got me, I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to prices. That is why some things are probably undervalued and others are over valued. Congratulations! You still knowingly try to exploit ignorance while I try my best to set prices which can and will be wrong at some point. It's not unethical to be wrong about prices, it is unethical to exploit other peoples ignorance for personal benefit.

You have not addressed a single criticism/argument I've made about unethical behavior in your post and it seems you are more interested in finding flaws with me personally and how I behave while ignoring the criticism of your behavior. This is commonly called deflection. Again its seems the only people who have responded to me are people who are completely accepting of taking advantage of people and have continued tried to rationalize why its okay to take advantage of people. You can talk about my prices all day, you have no idea what my items actually sell for and obviously I do not trust your opinion because someone like you seems to want to maximize value for yourself. I think it goes with out saying you would not be critical of my prices if I was not critical of the behavior that you've defended so it kind of makes your criticism less credible. In other words, you are attacking my prices only because you disagree with me on this topic or I spoke up about unethical behavior which you somehow got offended and took it personally and trying to return the favor.


With all that said, nothing you've written has addressed a single criticism I've made and your only purpose, it seems, is to change the subject to discussing my personal behavior. Again, my behavior has no bearing on whether or not the behavior you defend is ethical. This the fundamental problem why I can not take you serious at this point. Your argument is about me (i.e. "prices" and my purported "offendedness", not about the issues I've raised about the behavior you've defended. If you want to change my mind about the behavior you defend, stop talking about me, its completely irrelevant, and talk about why its acceptable for you to take advantage of ignorance.

You've brought up some examples how treating friends differently in a trade indicates some kind of unethical or immoral behavior.

Let me return an example. I'm really curious about your answer ("straw man"?)


Say you are an experienced art dealer. You scout a local flea market and see an obscure painting that you know is worth exactly 1000$. You even know a nearby auction house where this could be sold quickly. Yet, the seller only asks for 100$ and seems eager to make a deal. Do you

(a) simply buy the painting, resell it, and move on with your life,
(b) tell the seller: "I'm an art dealer and this painting is worth exactly 1000$. You can sell it at xxx.", or
(c) tell him: "well, this painting is certainly worth more than what you think. I will give you [insert random amount between 500$ and 990$] instead of your 100$. How does that sound?"
?

I can assure you that (b) and (c) will not keep you in business for long. Also, with your high ethics, (c) should be no option as well, since you should tell the seller that the painting is worth exactly 1000$ and where he could sell it.

So, what do we conclude? Are all intermediaries buying low and selling high immoral? All traders, real estate agents, art dealers, used-car sellers, etc.?

I would strongly argue that this is not the case. These people provide a valuable service to society. They ensure that commodities end up with the people who have the highest willingness to pay, not some random guy who happens to stumble upon a good deal.

Trading, even at very beneficial terms, is not immoral. Society profits from people who engage in arbitrage, just as the individual arbitrageurs profit from intermediated transactions.

Whether I would treat friends differently is besides the point. In real life, trading is a job that creates value. If you see it as this, it's not unethical to make a great deal. It's better that somebody does it than if an item ends up at the completely wrong buyer.

And one more thing. Maybe I'm doing you wrong, maybe that's ad hominem, but I was wondering.

To me, supporting a free-to-play game that I love is ethical. I have not devoted significant portions of my income to it, but at least I'm trying to contribute regularly.

I think that's far more ethical than to always behave correctly in virtual trades and never snap up a good deal. At least, I'm supporting real people and a business that I respect.

What is your stance on that?

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habkor wrote:

You've brought up some examples how treating friends differently in a trade indicates some kind of unethical or immoral behavior.

No I haven't. I've said if exploiting ignorance is ethical and acceptable you should do it to your friends as there is no reason not too but there is a reason you do not...and it has everything to do with you not wanting to take advantage of them.

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(a) simply buy the painting, resell it, and move on with your life,
(b) tell the seller: "I'm an art dealer and this painting is worth exactly 1000$. You can sell it at xxx.", or
(c) tell him: "well, this painting is certainly worth more than what you think. I will give you [insert random amount between 500$ and 990$] instead of your 100$. How does that sound?"
?

I can assure you that (b) and (c) will not keep you in business for long. Also, with your high ethics, (c) should be no option as well, since you should tell the seller that the painting is worth exactly 1000$ and where he could sell it.

If you are making a profit obviously you will stay in business and could potentially generate more business. There is no "high ethics". You are either ethical or you are not. Ethics are not subjective nor can they be measured.

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So, what do we conclude? Are all intermediaries buying low and selling high immoral? All traders, real estate agents, art dealers, used-car sellers, etc.?

Here we go with the straw man that profit is not ethical.

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I would strongly argue that this is not the case. These people provide a valuable service to society. They ensure that commodities end up with the people who have the highest willingness to pay, not some random guy who happens to stumble upon a good deal.

You are strongly arguing against a straw man.

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Trading, even at very beneficial terms, is not immoral. Society profits from people who engage in arbitrage, just as the individual arbitrageurs profit from intermediated transactions.

Its unethical to exploit ignorance for huge profit. If you have to rely on ignorance or exploiting ignorance to be successful I would have to question your capabilities and ethics. The right and wrong of it is irrelevant to me. I shy from moral arguments. I'm more about demonstrating its unethical and why you should not do it from a practical perspective. I try to not to say someone is wrong for doing something unless they are directly talking about me but I will be critical. I do not think the game benefits from people getting exploited especially with an inefficient market place. I do not think you understand the barrier that creates.

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habkor wrote:

I think that's far more ethical than to always behave correctly in virtual trades and never snap up a good deal. At least, I'm supporting real people and a business that I respect.

What is your stance on that?

"more ethical". I've explained the problems with this in my previous post. To the broader point you raised, Robin Hood is still an unethical thief despite his generous and compassionate charitable contributions.

Hint: You can be bad and good at the same time and one does not absolve the other. Being unethical does not mitigate your contributions to the game nor does does your contributions mitigate your unethical behavior.

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habkor wrote:

Say you are an experienced art dealer. You scout a local flea market and see an obscure painting that you know is worth exactly 1000$. You even know a nearby auction house where this could be sold quickly. Yet, the seller only asks for 100$ and seems eager to make a deal. Do you

(a) simply buy the painting, resell it, and move on with your life,
(b) tell the seller: "I'm an art dealer and this painting is worth exactly 1000$. You can sell it at xxx.", or
(c) tell him: "well, this painting is certainly worth more than what you think. I will give you [insert random amount between 500$ and 990$] instead of your 100$. How does that sound?"
?

That reminds me of something my ex girlfriend once told me. After we split up she started running a 2nd-hand record store with her new boyfriend. Half of their stock was popular music and junk, and the other half rarities. They constantly browsed flea markets in search of good deals.
One day, on one such flea market, she saw a rather rare record that she knew was priced at about 100€ for the condition it was in, sold by a 10 year-old boy for 1€. And you know what she did?
She haggled him down to 50 cents. Isn't that awesome? I mean awful!

And she told me this story with pride in her eyes, and I know it is true because that's her alright. Not greedy, just plain awesome. I mean awful.

Even I would consider that as unethical ;)

But what would be the right thing to do? Would offering him 50€ be ethical? Why not give him the full 100€ directly? It's difficult.

But when it comes to trade between consenting adults, I wouldn't see a problem. Some guy sells a rare record worth 100€ for 1€? Great, I'll take it.

In any case, it's a funny story. Thanks for sharing.