Trading for Newbies

Billy, I really don't get your issue with "ripping somebody off".

If somebody voluntarily and actively offers an item below market price, it's either his own fault for not doing proper research, *or* maybe he is actually aware of it and just wants to make a fast transaction, donate, quit the game, "just play for fun", or whatever.

Who am I to judge? But I'll happily buy it if he is so eager to sell.

No matter what, by revealed preference, the seller must have been happy with the transaction. He could have been happier potentially but so what? In retrospective, both of us improved our situation.

...

And of course, it's relevant whether I see somebody again. A repeated interaction does not follow the same rules as a one shot transaction, in particular in terms of optimal behavior.

I care about strangers but not to the extent that I'm shoving them over virtual currency when I know nothing about their background, motivation for trading, future plans with the game etc.

My Friend got rich just by scamming newbies. He once bought a Shvaronnes from someone that announced it in Global chat for 20 Chaos. He sold the same for some 80 Exalts once the league was over. (This was like an year back). I think he got some 200+ worth of Exalts this way while I remained poor, trying to be honest and nice.

I'm not complaining about this, I'm glad the way I am, I would never scam or mis-inform anyone but I just want to tell you people this story to remind you that scamming people DOES make you successful, At-least it worked for my friend.

This is what i would like to see less off, in this game, An auction hall would have prevented this confusion, But GGG refuses to have one. You can't sell an Item for insane prices when Item prices would be visible to everyone, Reducing scamming.

"

habkor wrote:

Billy, I really don't get your issue with "ripping somebody off".

Its bizarre to me that you do not understand why I care about ethics and integrity.

"

habkor wrote:

If somebody voluntarily and actively offers an item below market price, it's either his own fault for not doing proper research, *or* maybe he is actually aware of it and just wants to make a fast transaction, donate, quit the game, "just play for fun", or whatever.

First, if this is the case and you take the high road and say its worth more, this person will likely say he is aware but doesn't care and you'll still get it for the discounted rate. Second, its obvious your opinion changes when its a friend involved. More importantly It seems you think there is no reason to be honorable with strangers but have a need to be honorable with friends. I try to be honorable at all times, irrelevant of who I'm dealing with.

"

Who am I to judge? But I'll happily buy it if he is so eager to sell.

That is your prerogative but my guess this changes if you know the person.

"

And of course, it's relevant whether I see somebody again. A repeated interaction does not follow the same rules as a one shot transaction, in particular in terms of optimal behavior.

So again, you can take advantage of strangers but not friends. How am I supposed to respect you? I guess you do not care if people respect you or you comprise your own integrity with strangers.

"

BlackPagan wrote:

My Friend got rich just by scamming newbies. He once bought a Shvaronnes from someone that announced it in Global chat for 20 Chaos. He sold the same for some 80 Exalts once the league was over. (This was like an year back). I think he got some 200+ worth of Exalts this way while I remained poor, trying to be honest and nice.

I'm not complaining about this, I'm glad the way I am, I would never scam or mis-inform anyone but I just want to tell you people this story to remind you that scamming people DOES make you successful, At-least it worked for my friend.

This is what i would like to see less off, in this game, An auction hall would have prevented this confusion, But GGG refuses to have one. You can't sell an Item for insane prices when Item prices would be visible to everyone, Reducing scamming.

I think accessibility to the market place is difficult and leads to this cut-throat behavior. With that said, I think its important to understand that making market place inaccessible to a certain degree may have tangible benefits. I could be wrong but I do not think GGG wants the game to be primarily about trading and an auction house would likely put even more emphasis on trading rather than playing the actual game.

"

Billydanomad wrote:

"

habkor wrote:

Billy, I really don't get your issue with "ripping somebody off".

Its bizarre to me that you do not understand why I care about ethics and integrity.

I think you misunderstood me here. I care about ethics too. Ripping somebody off is not cool. However, at least to me, engaging in a voluntary *and* (apparently) mutually beneficial trade is not a ripoff. If I lie to somebody, provide misinformation, exploit distraction or emotional issues, put pressure on somebody to force him into a trade, etc., this would be unethical.

"

Billydanomad wrote:

"

habkor wrote:

And of course, it's relevant whether I see somebody again. A repeated interaction does not follow the same rules as a one shot transaction, in particular in terms of optimal behavior.

So again, you can take advantage of strangers but not friends. How am I supposed to respect you? I guess you do not care if people respect you or you comprise your own integrity with strangers.

I don't really care whether you respect me or not. Believe me or not, I treat strangers in an ethical and legal manner, both online and in real life. It's just that different things are ethical to us.
If I offered a 20 Exas ring for 10c in PoE, I would not expect (or desire) a typical stranger to educate me and voluntarily dump currency into me. It's simply my own fault. I've made mistakes like this, but I've never held a grudge against the buyer when the only one to blame was me.

And yes, to some extent I think it's fine to "take advantage" of strangers (in the sense of engaging in a favourable trade) but not friends or family. Trading is about taking advantages. There is surplus to be shared, but how it is split depends on the terms of the transaction. Of course, I want these terms to be as much in my favour as possible.

With friends or family, it's of course different. This is not business anymore. To me, friendship is about trust, caring for each other, reciprocity, stability and continutity, etc. I give away things for free to my friends, help them when they are need, and am happy about that. But if I'm trading, particularly in an online game (but also on the stock market), I do not run a charity.

"

habkor wrote:

I think you misunderstood me here. I care about ethics too. Ripping somebody off is not cool. However, at least to me, engaging in a voluntary *and* (apparently) mutually beneficial trade is not a ripoff. If I lie to somebody, provide misinformation, exploit distraction or emotional issues, put pressure on somebody to force him into a trade, etc., this would be unethical.

I think you cling too hard to the "mutually beneficial" defense in order to rationalize taking advantage of people. We can logically conclude that if the ignorant person gets ANY benefit, no matter how large or small, its perfectly acceptable to you. However, as we dig deeper into your thoughts on the subject, this is not always the case. You've stated you will not take advantage of your friends. If it is, in fact, ethical, you should have no problems taking advantage of your friends. Ethics in the context we are discussing do not change based on who you are interacting with. Ethics are universal. You must think there is some problem with taking advantage of people or you would be fine taking advantage of your friends. As far as mutually beneficial....just because an ignorant person is ignorant of what he's lost does not mean he hasn't lost something. You say as long as the person is happy it's okay but try and be transparent after the trade and see the reaction you get. I'm willing to bet most people will not be happy with the trade anymore and will not consider it mutually beneficial. While they may not say it, most certainly an overwhelming majority will think they got taken advantage of. Think about this, in order for such a trade to be mutually beneficial, you have to keep the true value hidden because I'm sure you will agree that once the true value is exposed majority of people will no longer feel the deal was mutually beneficial. You do not have to but I would stop talking about "mutually beneficial" when you will not be transparent about the details and rely on ignorance to exploit strangers. You cant claim "mutually beneficial" when the other party is ignorant of the salient details to understand whether or not it was beneficial.

"

Billydanomad wrote:

And of course, it's relevant whether I see somebody again. A repeated interaction does not follow the same rules as a one shot transaction, in particular in terms of optimal behavior.

Ethics and integrity are universal and does not change based on who you are dealing with.

"

I don't really care whether you respect me or not. Believe me or not, I treat strangers in an ethical and legal manner, both online and in real life.

Its does not seem so.

"

It's just that different things are ethical to us.

I actually think the same things are ethical to us, you just choose to ignore ethics with certain people.

"

If I offered a 20 Exas ring for 10c in PoE, I would not expect (or desire) a typical stranger to educate me and voluntarily dump currency into me. It's simply my own fault. I've made mistakes like this, but I've never held a grudge against the buyer when the only one to blame was me.

Being responsible for your own actions is one thing, I can get that. I'm not saying the ignorant person has no responsibility in the matter however it does not absolve the ethical conflict that arose when when someone decided to take advantage of you.

"

And yes, to some extent I think it's fine to "take advantage" of strangers (in the sense of engaging in a favourable trade) but not friends or family. Trading is about taking advantages. There is surplus to be shared, but how it is split depends on the terms of the transaction. Of course, I want these terms to be as much in my favour as possible.

That is your prerogative and this thread is not meant for people trying to maximize value by taking advantage of people. Its meant for people who want to engage with other people in order to make their buying experience more efficient and effective which may not be the most profitable but many people are less concerned with the profit and more concerned with just getting their gear for a relatively fair price.

"

With friends or family, it's of course different. This is not business anymore. To me, friendship is about trust, caring for each other, reciprocity, stability and continutity, etc. I give away things for free to my friends, help them when they are need, and am happy about that. But if I'm trading, particularly in an online game (but also on the stock market), I do not run a charity.

Yes, I understand, your ethics are not universal. You wont take advantage of your friends, which indicates you see some inherent ethical or moral issues with doing such a thing but you will rationalize ethics away when it suits you, especially with strangers. I'm not saying its wrong do be this way, I just vehemently disagree with it. In my opinion, when you are dealing with a stranger, its all about you and you could care less about the other person. Which is not right or wrong but I'm sure you can imagine some people feeling contempt for such a sentiment which you do not really care about it seems.

I can see where you are coming from and that's certainly some interesting food for thought. Although it will not affect my trade habits (whether my ethics are universal or not), I appreciate the intelligent discussion.

Maybe two more final points from my side.

First, even if ethics are universal, this doesn't mean that one cannot treat strangers and friends differently and still be ethical at all times. Say my constraint for being ethical is that both parties involved in a trade are happy with it, in the sense that a "fair" share of the surplus to be gained goes to the other party.

However, with friends and family, my utility function includes both my own gain and theirs. Say the total surplus to be gained is 100. I might prefer a split 50 me / 50 them for friends, but 95/5 for strangers, simply because I put direct weight on the gains of friends, while this is not the case for strangers.


Second, with your sharply defined ethics, I'm a bit confused when a trade is fair or ethical for you and when it is not. Say the typical market clearing price for an item is 30 Chaos. Where is your threshold? Say somebody offers the item for 25c. Still fine for you? 20c? Well, 5c would certainly seem unethical to you.

But then, what about the following situation. Somebody sells an item that is usually worth 100 Exas for 98. Maybe he just found his first Shavs or whatever. I'm pretty sure it would seem ethical for you to make the deal. But then, you "ripped off" the guy for 2 Exas, which is much more than if you had "totally ripped off" the first guy buying his item for 5c instead of 30. Where can you draw the line? What are the rules here?

It works both ways actually, the seller can rip off new players as well - certainly if people bought many items priced in billy's shop (check it out btw) then the buyer has just been ripped off.

In addition to not offering low, I would say it is equally as rude to price your items high.

Like wtf? Do you not respect me putting such troll prices on your items? It's completely ruining my game experience to see such numbers.

"

habkor wrote:

First, even if ethics are universal, this doesn't mean that one cannot treat strangers and friends differently and still be ethical at all times. Say my constraint for being ethical is that both parties involved in a trade are happy with it, in the sense that a "fair" share of the surplus to be gained goes to the other party.

"Happiness" is not really relevant to ethics.

"

However, with friends and family, my utility function includes both my own gain and theirs. Say the total surplus to be gained is 100. I might prefer a split 50 me / 50 them for friends, but 95/5 for strangers, simply because I put direct weight on the gains of friends, while this is not the case for strangers.

I think this obfuscates away from the central theme of the discussion. We are discussing specifically whether or not it's ethical to take advantage of ignorance in the market place. Not what kind of value you place on your goods based on who you are interacting with. Sure my friends get discounts too but that has really nothing to do with the question that ask whether or not it is ethical if I were to take advantage of their ignorance. I honestly do not think you would pay your friend 1c for an item you know is worth several exalted unless he was aware of the value. You'd be open and honest with him and say, "hey that's worth more". I do not think you would think its acceptable for you to do that to your friend but you think its okay to do it to a stranger.

"

Second, with your sharply defined ethics, I'm a bit confused when a trade is fair or ethical for you and when it is not. Say the typical market clearing price for an item is 30 Chaos. Where is your threshold? Say somebody offers the item for 25c. Still fine for you? 20c? Well, 5c would certainly seem unethical to you.

Its absolutely subjective and if you can not clearly tell if its blatantly unfair then you should be okay but when its blatant I think the honorable person will not exploit that blatant ignorance.

"

But then, what about the following situation. Somebody sells an item that is usually worth 100 Exas for 98. Maybe he just found his first Shavs or whatever. I'm pretty sure it would seem ethical for you to make the deal. But then, you "ripped off" the guy for 2 Exas, which is much more than if you had "totally ripped off" the first guy buying his item for 5c instead of 30. Where can you draw the line? What are the rules here?

I think this is a straw man. I've not argued that profit is unethical. See my previous paragraph.

"

Deathbringerx wrote:

It works both ways actually, the seller can rip off new players as well - certainly if people bought many items priced in billy's shop (check it out btw) then the buyer has just been ripped off.

I really want to address this but I'm not going to indulge with the exception of this:

Most of my items sell for below the b/o so its not a fair or accurate assumption that I'm ripping people off based on my b/o's. You can continue to try and turn the discussion into an ad homenim against me but I do not think it will get very far when you draw such absurd conclusions. You cherry picking a few items and saying they are over price is laughable. Sure my prices may be high on somethings and lower on others....I will be the first one to admit I do not have a unflappable knowledge of prices and some may be wrong, I'm not actively trying to take advantage of people. If someone can point out with comparable why its too high, I will listen and if it makes sense make a deal as opposed to your side who actively tries to exploit ignorance. Its also my belief that you think a fairly valued item is over priced so your conclusions are really irrelevant to me.

"

In addition to not offering low, I would say it is equally as rude to price your items high.

You do not have to visit my shop or interact with me at all but I have no choice but to see your spam and low-balls if I want to play the game. That's a rather big distinction.

"

Deathbringerx wrote:

Like wtf? Do you not respect me putting such troll prices on your items? It's completely ruining my game experience to see such numbers.

As pointed out, your analogy is severely flawed. I'm not taking advantage of anyone. Maybe if you tried a little harder to understand what I'm saying instead of taking my words personally it would make a little more sense to you. Incidentally my sales have gone through the roof with this thread. Maybe just a coincidence.